Add To Cart Podcast: How Total Tools are Mastering the Trade of Customer Loyalty

In my career, I've worked in beauty, I've worked in pharmacy, I've worked in gambling. And it's a natural segue to go to tradies. About 91% of transactions are through our loyalty customers, 100% online, but 91% overall. And that means that we know exactly who they are, everything about them, and can target them one-to-one like never before. This is the time to go out and strike. This is the time to be aggressive and to win market share. Welcome to Add To Cart, Australia's leading e-commerce podcast that express delivers all you need to know in the fast moving world of online retail. Here's your host, Bushy. Welcome to another episode of Add To Cart. I'm Bushy and I'm joining you from the land of the terrible people otherwise known as Brisbane, Australia. On Add To Cart, we welcome everyone to share and listen to e-commerce stories. The more diverse, the better. I want to especially welcome the traditional owners and the original storytellers of the land that we are on. Now Indigenous and Torres Strait Islander listeners to join us in our e-commerce conversations and our community. Coming to you today from another live event, we're on a bit of a roll with our live events and we love bringing our conversations into a packed room. It's much more fun than being the lone ranger in my studio. This time we are in Melbourne at the Emarsys Power To The Marketer event. Now Power To The Marketer is a global event and this year's theme was elevating the art and science of marketing. It was a full day, jam packed with presentations and conversations around customer and loyalty. My guest today is Darren Gunton, GM of Marketing and e-Commerce at Total Tools, Australia's largest independent professional tools retailer with 81 franchised stores and doing over $1 billion in revenue. $1 billion. In this chat, Darren channels his customer, the tradie, swear words and all, just a heads up if you've got kids with you. He shares how he is pushing the boundaries of hyper personalization with loyalty programs that services the 1.9 million tradies that Total Tools has on its database. Total Tools is one of Emarsys' long standing and proudest customers. He also shares how a fail first mentality is his mode of choice and how he goes face to face with his customers, sometimes with shitty results. It will all make sense in the chat, I promise. But there's also a truckload of loyalty tips and a passion for the customer. I always love these chats much more than the prim and proper ones. We're going to kick off our chat with Darren and then close with some takeaways with Emarsys' Will Wilson, who is the Regional Vice President of Sales for APAC and Japan and was also the host with the most on the day. So thanks, Emarsys, here's our live chat with Darren Gunton, GM of Marketing and e-Commerce at Total Tools. Okay, so fun fact, every Monday morning I start my week with a very specific ritual. That ritual is to look at the latest episode of Add To Cart with Nathan Bush. If you are in e-commerce or retail in Australia, you should absolutely pull out your iPhone right now. Search for Add To Cart with Nathan Bush and hit subscribe because it is a really fantastic insight into the leaders in our region and what they're doing in our space. So we have a very big treat to end today. We are doing a live recording of the Add To Cart podcast with Nathan Bush, who has a special guest, one of our very strong advocates, Darren from Total Tools. So I'm not going to stand in the way of the last session. I'm going to introduce Nathan and Darren to the stage. Thank you, Will. I feel like we need a podcast just to learn more about your routine. I'm curious. We've learned a lot about you today. So from McDonalds to the gym you're joining, you're a riddle to me. So we are recording this and broadcasting. So that doesn't mean you can't heckle. We're okay with heckling, it's probably more of a warning for you Darren as a publicly listed company. I'm used to a little heckling, so I'm fine with that. Alright, let's kick off with a question that will probably dictate where we go in our chat today. So we've had a full day of learning about customers, loyalty. What is the one takeaway that you will take away from today and use at Total Tools or the one thing that you want to call upon? Yeah, I think one of the things, it's probably two for me, to kind of take out for me. One is just the authenticity of all the presentations today and having it all come from an honest, truthful place and some really actionable things that we can take away from this. I think it's really good that lots of little things that you can take away. I was at a, and I got a call to join another company or anything, but I was at a big competitor, I suppose, overseas and it was just all marketing buzzwords all day and nothing practical and it just seemed like Australia is so far ahead of where the world is at the moment in loyalty and the space. The other big thing, which I thought was really cool, being a Gen Xer, is that the gender equality thing that was spoken about and how females have caught up from the pay gap and I think that's well or catching up in the early days. So that really makes me happy, personally. So I thought that was really cool take out. Yeah and Simon's presentation was amazing. It was great, wasn't it? I was let's go. I've been on my phone deep diving into its contents, it's been awesome. But from a Total Tools perspective, when you looked at all those different demographics, could you easily work out where your customer sits? Oh hell yeah. Like we've been doing, and it's so funny because I've just been doing a whole lot of deep dive analysis into our customer and looking at our customer over the last month or so. Just because we're coming into budget season, we're coming to planning for next year, where do we need to shift and pivot? What do we need to do for the future? And a couple of big key takeaways from that was one is that our existing customer base, which is mainly the 26 year old group, mainly males, because they're tradies, they're tradies and we've got a bit of a gender equality issue there, but they've shifted in their communications patterns. You know, if I look at six years ago, well throughout my career, retail bricks and mortar, retail was all about catalog, radio, TV, all those things. And I grew up making TV ads, making radio ads, doing model shoots when I was in beauty and all those sort of things on a day in, day out, catalogs, churning them out, and just seeing the shift over like the last bit of research you've been looking at, it's all email, it's all website that's driving everything to the point where I'm going "I'm spending millions and millions and millions of dollars on, still a long catalog, but a lot, lot less. And so on radio like do I just ditch them? What's the point? Like social media is like, jump right up. We do a lot there. But looking at that under 26 and it was just kind of mirrored in some of the research today going, yeah, yeah, that's exactly what we're focusing on next. And it was really insightful to see that we I've heard from Bernard Salt, which is actually from the same group about a month ago, so really mirrored some of that stuff as well. But it's fascinating to see where those people are changing and how they're targeting those groups. And so considering that whole mix, because you do go across e-commerce, loyalty, advertising as the GDM, where are you putting most of your investment? Yeah, so I think it's where do I reinvest? Where our time and energy is going into is, I'd say the customer and the customer will shop wherever the hell they want to shop, and that will change over time. So one of the things I've found over the last five years, in particular that e-commerce, and if you take e-commerce out of its website, is the number one driver of visitation to stores. So the bricks and mortar is being driven by the website, whether they shop through the e-commerce part or whether they're researching and then going into store to purchase or click and collect or whatever, it's really getting that channel right to then activate that behind the scenes is the loyalty proposition. We now have about 91% of transactions through our loyalty customers, 100% online, but 91% overall. And that means that we know exactly who they are, everything about them, and can target them one-to-one like never before, whether it's on the website or through email marketing or through SMS or any of the other channels. Am I right in reading that you are doing over $1,000,000,000 in sales at the moment? We are. Yeah, it's funny, when I started we weren't doing anywhere near that. It was a couple of hundred and to be breaking the billion dollar barrier was a big milestone for the business. But just seeing all the change over the period that I've been around and and the team implementing all that, it's been fantastic. And most of the people in the marketing team have been there the same time as me. So it's as one collective team. We've been changing history, so to speak. And so on a scale then those numbers that you said, around 91% of those transactions in-store being identifiable, 100% online, what mechanisms or processes have you put in place to get those numbers so high? So we did a lot of things. When I first came on board and Elisse, our Head of Group Loyalty, was involved as well. We changed the loyalty proposition. So the proposition was terrible and we needed to make it fit with our consumer. And our tradies are simple guys. They're very down to earth and you need to have a program that focuses on leveraging them to come back. There wasn't the proper methodology. There wasn't the proper KPIs of frequency to get them back in. There was none of that. And we had to change the whole fundamentals of the program so it worked to be able to leverage them to get them back. And then we also had to engage the stores; we're franchise based. So we had to win the hearts and minds of all the individual store managers, franchisees, those people to sell the sizzle and build the sausage as well. It's funny that you talk about sausage, sizzle and loyalty because we're getting into competitive territory there. Yeah, we sure are. And we do a lot of sausage sizzles as well as is probably alluding to one of our big competitors, which is Bunnings. And probably the big point of difference between us and Bunnings is if you you're a tradie and you're going to Bunnings, you get a very limited range of tools. You're going to us comapared to Bunnings, we've got a massive range. We're about a third of the size of a Bunnings and dedicated to just tools. So I grew up on tools. My dad had a building business from six years old. I was handing tools to my dad and over my career I've worked in beauty, I've worked in drugs or pharmacy, I've worked in gambling, and it's a natural segue to go to tradies. So it was a really good segue. So when we're talking to our customer there, they want that range have surety on price, surety on trip assurance of the product will be there when they get it because when they're buying the bike for a need. So it's not like they're going, "Well I really wouldn't like that angle grinder mate." It's like, "Oh, I've just broken my angle grinder. I need one now because I'm doing a job, I need a finger on it." So that's how they operate. So it's not like, "Oh, yeah, I had this too. I'd love to get one of those." No, no, it's I need right now. So that's a lot of what we think about too, is how do we get in the shoes of our customers and think like a customer? From a loyalty perspective, you've obviously got a really clear loyalty proposition there with the three tiered program. Can you explain to us how that came about and how you got to the point of knowing that they were the right tiers that would appeal to that audience that you described? Yeah. So we did a lot of research and firstly, the proposition when we changed it needed to be driven by how do we leverage the customer to come back. I mean, a lot of people mess things up in loyalty. They go, "Oh, I need a loyalty program. I'll put one in." They don't think through why and why do you need one? How does your customer shop? What do you need to do to leverage them to come back in? What are the leverage points to get them back in? So we looked at that really extensively. We looked at the frequency of visits and then modeled our tiering structure based on that and then leveraged that top tier. So the top tier gets double points. They get a whole lot of added soft and hard benefits to make them aspire to get to that. And once they're there, we've got those 'leverage your points' and they're like "Oh, I want to go back and use them or prefer to use it, I don't want to give that money away. So I'll keep shopping at the same spot," which works a treat. One of the funniest things was actually working out whether they were cold. So we had these funny names, "Oh we can call it Diamond Blade. This is really cool. We are so smart. Oh, look at these things." We went back to a customer. They're like, "Nah. Can you give bronze, silver, and gold?" Wow, okay, yeah, I can do that. So, it's really understanding your customers and how to leverage them. Yeah. What are some ways that you're using data at the moment that might surprise people? It might even go beyond marketing in terms of intelligence about your customers and the propositions that you put forward as a business? We measure. After every single transaction, we ask them about why they shopped, what was the reason for their purchase? We asked them what channel influenced their purchase? So we know exactly with every promo, everything we've done, everything they bought, what's influencing that? Every single decision we make is based on customer feedback. So we do the most amazing stuff all the time and ask them the most ridiculous questions on the drop of a hat. I remember I was working at a large auto retailer here in Australia and we were trying to work out our program at that time what offers, what cash backs, all that sort of stuff. And this had gone through multiple meetings and multiple focus groups and ecetera. And we were trying to work it out. We couldn't figure it. And I was sitting next to the CRM manager one day and he was like, "Why don't we just call our top five customers and ask them what they think?" We got the answer like that. So is it the same for you? Even though you've got these millions of records and you could crunch numbers till the cows come home, that picking up the phone is sometimes the best way to get those insights? Yeah, there's a classic example of that for me is we have these things called VIP nights for our customers twice a year. And everything was store does a massive event. We put on a barbecue or we bring pizza in and we've got grog there. So I have a beer and I chat with my mates. We've got to deal with all the reps in there. So it's great. It's a really good microcosm of our customer base where we've got a big concentration to us here. I work at a lot of them on the microphone doing competitions and random funny stuff, and just talk to customers. So one of the insights was pulling out from our data was that looking at our trades and who was buying what was looking at the people that were buying automotive tools and it wasn't mechanics and I was like what's going on and then looking at the people buying them. The biggest group buying mechanics was actually carpenters. I was like, "That just does not make sense. What's going on here?" So I walked in a store and I saw some people in that automotive area looking at tools. And I asked, one who was looking a big toolbox, "So are you a mechanic?" And he's like, "Nah, I'm a carpenter." And I'm like, "Why are you buying?"-"Oh, I've got a project car. I love it. You know, so I'm working on to buying that." I'm like, okay. And then I talk to another guy and he's just looking at individual hand tools. "So are you a carpenter?"- "No, I'm a mechanic."- "Why aren't you buying the big kits?"- "Nah, what I do is I buy replacement small bits where I have to get into an awkward area. So what I do is I cut it with a grinder, weld it on a weird angle, and then I've got this toolbox called Frankenstein's Toolbox. And that's where all my tools go and that's when I come to Total Tools. I just buy a replacement bits here. And that's how it all works." I'm like, Oh my God. So I wouldn't have got that insight without first using the data, the secondary source of data, and then actually in the primary data by doing that qualitative actually standing and talking to people. Yeah. And do you have a process within your team that encourages your team to go out and meet customers in person, be on those nights? Yeah. So those events, the whole team goes out. So we all work, whether on the barbecue or somewhere out there so we can actually spend time with the customer as well. So we get that immersive bit through that. But we, we also have an exceptional voracious AB testing and trialing and using data and seeing what's going on and putting out surveys and stuff throughout the whole team. So we have a fail fast mentality and so we just get it out there, hack it together, try it. If it works, keep it going. Doesn't work, stop it, learn how can we change? So but all based on that customer data, what can we learn out of that? And what we learn doesn't work is just as valuable as what we work does work. Have you got any examples of what hasn't worked? Yeah. So some great classic examples of that. One was and this is kind of a probably contentious one. One is that our customers, if you think about it, if they're buying because they need it right away, they need price surity. They need to make sure the price is right. So I was like, "Oh my God, you know what would probably work then is if we did a price matching where they could click and it instantly scrape and then say – Look, I've found a dollar cheaper and match." So I mean, yeah that makes logical sense. Sounds great. Theory's great. Put that in. It actually took us about two months backwards and forwards to get it working with a third party provider, put it out there and there was no change overall from the two with people that had that were not doing that just on the page. There was a change if they clicked on it and just to do a price match, only two actually had the price difference. So that was a bit of a waste. But people clicking on the pop up to say, Yeah, you can check this, do you want to check? Actually gave about a 5% uplift, but the cost of actually doing that as an ongoing service through a third party didn't equate to the returns. We're like scrap that. So you don't need to do that. But we can actually replicate that ourselves because we don't actually need to do anything other than saying we will price match as a pop up. So, that's something we did. Oh now you've done it, is that the conversation stops internally and go, We've got the data on it. We can prove that yes, it didn't work and we can move on with that? So it's always good to retest too. Like we always come back to things that we either didn't work or did work. Just because it didn't work two years ago doesn't mean it won't work today. Or just because it did work two years ago and we're still doing it. We need to test it still works. Otherwise it's doing something is not working, which is even worse. One of the themes from today has been obviously the economy that we're in, that it is challenging, that we've got to be smarter around how we go about things. The hands up here, If you were in a marketing position in the 2008 recession, the big one? Okay. Not too many. So what happened before that was everything was around quality. So all of the advertising we're doing was around price premium, quality. If you're in homogenous versus heterogeneous, homogenous stuff, you didn't need to be the lowest price. It was all about you push service, you can push quality. If you're in heterogeneous, which is selling your own branded products, which no one else can copy, then it didn't really matter anyway, right? But everything was all around premium. Soon as that hit, and I remember the Christmas around then and I was working in beauty at the time, the market smashed and it just went to discounting and I'm starting to see a bit of that here where the customer is valuing value and that's what you probably start seeing if you haven't been through it. It's coming or it's hitting us now. You probably sit around this Christmas where Black Friday will be huge because people are buying on value. And then the Christmas, I reckon all the retail data coming will be that retail sucks through Christmas and they'll probably be a few retailers going broke because of it. That's what we're looking into now. But luckily we're kind of blessed in the way that it doesn't affect us at Total Tools. But I do feel for a lot of the retailers in the room. I think it's a good point, but value can mean different things. It doesn't always mean discounting, right? Value to different customers. What does value look like for Total Tools? But the value is always going to be compared to the competitor. If you're in a homogenous, which you've got someone else can buy product X somewhere else, they're going to be saying, if you're more expensive, they're not going to buy because you've got better service. They're going to be looking the way you come to use for the service and then go to them for the product. So I've been burnt on that before and that's what's going to be happening. However, if you look at the whole value proposition, the customer value proposition overall, one of the key things is going to be for us is having the product in stock. So those other metrics, having the product in stock, being convenient. And so convenience can mean lots of things. Can I get at the same day rather than are you close to me? All those sort of things are really more poignant now than they were a year ago to three years ago, to five years ago to ten years ago. And I think from your demonstration of how well you know your customer, that your customer needs it for that job, needs to get in, get out, kind of knows what they're talking about. Might need a little bit of steering here and there is very different to say those in the beauty industry who might want to engage and really learn and be more involved. So I think that comes from the base is understanding that customer. Yeah, that's right. But I think we all kind of freaked out when Amazon came in the market and then we all had a sigh of relief when it didn't do anything. And then now they're coming back with a vengeance and it's going to be about that convenience because you see a lot of competitors that were really big in that space and now being eaten from them by the fact that you can order it and get it same day. So that's going to really eat into, and you get it for free because with Prime you get the same night delivery for free. So that's the big elephant in the room that we need to be careful of in the current conditions. So bringing it back to customer and loyalty and as an Emarsys event, tell us as a long term Emarsys customer over the next 12 months, you mentioned some of the themes that you're seeing and that you are a bit hesitant on what's coming. How are you going to leverage the most out of the platform over the next 12 months? Yeah, I think whilst I would say the market, may be interesting for retail in general over the next 12 months, this is the time to go out and strike. This is the time to be aggressive and to win market share. And so the harder you can go, the better. So from our point of view, it's really pushing the boundaries in hyper personalization. So how can we really bring all that we know about the customer, personalize as hard as we can to the next level that no one else is, and delivering those products to the customer in a omnichannel fashion? So we are looking at everything we can and putting all guns blazing at that now and a number of other initiatives to try and really push the envelope. Now's the time to do it. Now is the time. And using a tool like Emarsys, which is amazing, that gives you the flexibility and the strength and the agility to do it. You can act really quickly, learn, really quickly, fail, succeed, pivot, change and try again, but do it now. I think that's a great point to wrap up on. Everyone, give it up for Darren. Thank you very much, everyone. There we go. Well, that was a great chat with Darren. Now, you were M.C. for the whole day. Power To The Marketer. How was that for you? It was full on. It was an amazing day, action packed with all of the customers and guests and partners that were in the room. It was a big high. And I think Darren really ended the day very nicely with his energy. I think there was plenty of energy there. There's no doubt about that. So for those who may not have been in the room, Will, can you just give everyone a bit of a brief overview? Because Darren was one part of a whole day's worth of content. Can you give everyone a little bit of an overview on what Power To The Marketer was? Power To The Marketer for us is actually much bigger than just the day. Power To The Marketer really is the reason that we all get out of the bed in the morning. You know, our vision as a business is to give more power to the marketer, to make their life easier, and really execute on the business outcomes that they want as a business, whatever their business might be. Power To The Marketer, the event, is really the embodiment of that globally. It's an opportunity every year to really celebrate our customers and our product and our business and our future together. It's a global series. So it kicks off in New York. We had it in London, Munich, Melbourne and Hong Kong. So it's an opportunity to connect and learn more about how other customers are using the platform. Talk about some of the industry trends that we're seeing, particularly as we look forward now to 2024 and the state of retail and e-commerce and what we are seeing next year. So yeah, it's an action packed day in reality for those who attend. Lots of networking opportunities, lots of ideas shared and hopefully a bit of fun as well. There was lots of fun, no doubt about that. What I loved about it is obviously it is a global event, so you have people from all over the world and you're collecting all those lessons. But it's also for those who attend, if they choose to wish to take it up, they're actually learning credits available, which I think is really unique for an industry event. Now, if you talk there about some of the trends that you saw coming through, what were some of the key trends or highlights from a content perspective that you saw in Melbourne 2023? I think the Melbourne 2023 event, for me, what really stuck out was the customer stories. I just mentioned that before, just seeing how customers are thinking differently about how to get outcomes in particularly in the current macroeconomic environment. We have had a shift to retention marketing for a lot of brands in this periods and Emarsys is obviously very well positioned to cater for that. For me, one customer story that really stuck out was Sophie Lawson from Village Roadshow Theme Parks, an amazing business up on the Gold Coast. A lot of us have childhood memories going to their parks. They launched with Emarsys this year and they're now seeing over 80% of revenue attributed to the campaigns that they're sending from Emarsys, which is really, really incredible. But also an opportunity for their team really to level up and advance their skills and and their focus and have far more of a strategic mindset about where their business is going and how they're going to get there. If I can just interrupt you there. If we're being honest, you have more recent memories than childhood memories. I think we heard about you going on roller coasters. Are you getting special access there? We did get special access. The team are very generous. I would highly encourage everyone to to reach out because we had the opportunity to visit them on site and their office is literally attached to the movie world. And so, we had the opportunity to go on the fastest, longest ride in the southern hemisphere. So if you want a photo of me on a roller coaster looking absolutely terrified, I think it's socializing somewhere out there in the world. We need that in the world. It's the brand. And so we take our attention to the conversation that we just heard with Darren, like you said. This was the last conversation of the day, and I think Darren brought it home really well. Great energy, really authentic, didn't hold back from sharing. We usually do a wrap up at the end of our episodes where I give my three insights that I took from the conversation, but I'm throwing it to you, Will. I'd love to hear from you. What were the three insights you got from Darren? I think you said it really well. Darren is a ball of energy. He's also very, very experienced. And and I think really what came across in the conversation is that he really understands his business and his customer very, very well. And that is something that is very, very important for any marketer globally to service your customer in that way. I think a couple of insights from my perspective, Total Tools is now over $1billion of revenue and Darren talked about the fact that the website still remains a key driver for foot traffic in the stores. Tradies really run their business on their mobile phone. You break a tool that can often directly impact your revenue that day or that week because that's a job that you're working on. Being able to understand and locate the product and research that very quickly in real time is a really important path to purchase for the Total Tools business and I think they've really nailed that. The other interesting aspect is that they have actually, simplified their websites to cater for that demographic. It doesn't have to be too fancy. It needs to get the job done and have a bit of utility attached to it. And that's really based on the feedback that they had from the customers. In the second big insight for me is that 91% of transactions are coming from a loyalty customer. That's a phenomenal statistic. That's massive, right? So they've done a really good job, clearly of understanding the customer again and giving them what they want in terms of a loyalty program. And in the last one, I kind of hinted on it in the first point. Every decision they make in the business is based on customer feedback. So customer is at the center of everything that they do, and I think Darren definitely embodies that, but that's really showing the value. I mean, we've worked with Total Tools since before they were acquired by Metcash and they're doing some amazing things now and a real beacon for for growth. And I think the rest of the business is learning from them in a lot of ways, which is very inspiring. Fantastic takeouts. I agree with all of them. Really great summary of the conversation. You should have my job. Alright, now you probably don't want to think about this, but looking ahead to next year, like you said, Power To The Marketer is almost built into the Emarsys DNA now. What can we expect for 2024? I think that it always gets bigger and better.This year's theme was elevating the art and science of marketing. I think we will continue to elevate the event every year. We'll get better speakers, more content, more networking opportunities, probably more- Coasters? What was that, coasters? I don't think we can top that. I think we did a fantastic job, Nathan, And I think probably more more cities next year. I think so probably expanding it. But I think it's one really to put in the calendar. It really is such a great opportunity in each of the local areas globally to connect with like minded marketing professionals and really learn from each other. So yeah, next year will be bigger and better, I have no doubt. Well, that's a big challenge to the team, but I agree with you. It's truly a unique and really valuable event to go to. It's one that you can actually justify being out of the office for a whole day for. As you said, there's learning credits that it really is an L&D focus. So it's meant to be like tangible learning outcomes from it as well as the connections you can make in your career and for your business as well. Great. Now, Will, if we've heard either Darren's conversation or some of the stories that you've thrown down there around you, being on roller coasters and the success the Village Roadshow have had, what's the best way for people to learn more about, Emarsys or get in touch with yourself? Yeah, definitely. I think the website so is the best. Emarsys.com. We have the ability to request a demo and see lots of our customer stories on our website, kind of shares who we work with and how we work with them. So I think the website is the best location really to try to hit up a Emarsys and we would love to have a conversation with any business or brand or professional, that wants to have that conversation. Great stuff. Will, thank you so much. Well done on MCing a brilliant event. Go get some sleep. Thank you very much, Nathan. Thanks for joining us today on Add To Cart. To listen to all our e-commerce conversations, now in the hundreds, you can head on over to addtocart.com.au. There you can also join up to our free private slack community to share e-commerce ideas, tips and questions with other listeners. You can also subscribe to the Add To Cart weekly newsletter and browse some of the video highlights from our chats. There is a lot there. That's addtocart.com.au. And if I can ask you one thing before you go, if you enjoyed today's episode, make sure you share it with a friend or a colleague who could benefit or leave us a review. It really makes a difference. Thanks again for listening. And until next time, keep those customers adding to cart.