First Party Data: Capture It Right,
Use It Strategically, Grow Faster

My name is Alex. I'm the senior vice president of verticals here at Emarsys, and I'm talking with David Eldridge from 3radical. And the topic of today's conversation, particularly in what is going to be one of the busiest online shopping periods in history. That's also seeing some of the biggest changes to customer data and privacy in history, is to really talk about the role of customer data in marketing, personalization, and communications, but also in just growth for businesses. And to really have a conversation around — from both perspectives — what's in it for the customer? And what's in it for the brand? And I think this is a really, really important conversation for everyone to be having, is to look at not just your need for customer data, but what's in it for my customer to give me data and how do I make sure that I'm managing that effectively? For the people at Emarsys who aren't necessarily very familiar with 3radical and your offerings, do you want to give a little bit of background about the origin story of the business and how you came to come into it, David? Because I think it's an important one, givin your background in CRM, and then we'll have a bit of a chat on the topic of customer data, how to get it, and what's in it for a customer. Absolutely. So my last business before 3radical was a business called Alterian that I founded back in the late '90s. And it started off as a marketing analytics software business, very focused around data and how to use data effectively to improve customer experiences and relevance, if you like. And then we wrapped the execution channels around that of campaign management, email, web, social, and so on. So that was a really interesting time, actually, to be building out a marketing platform — late '90s through to kind of 2010. And we had a lot of fun doing that. And the business did very well, helping quite a broad range of enterprise customers around the world to improve their marketing efficiency, and to an extent, their marketing effectiveness by using data and modeling to try and improve that relevancy. And after we sold that business and, you know, we're thinking about, what have we done? How can we make a difference going forward? You know, one of the things that really struck us was, actually achieving the ultimate goals required you to have content that was kind of really interesting and engaging, as well as the ability to deliver that content. And so what we built at 3radical was a platform, a SaaS platform that lets business users create interactive experiences as opposed to kind of passive content, which invite individuals to get involved because they're fun and rewarding, and which then, through that increased engagement, spin off data and permissions to use that data through kind of a clarity of, you know, why that data has been gathered, how it's being gathered, and what it's going to be used for, and what the benefit and the value exchange is for the consumer. So that's what we've been doing for the last few years. It's a platform that business users can very quickly create, spin up, and then deliver these experiences through, you know, marketing platforms like Emarsys, into their emails, into their website, into lots of different digital experiences, if you like, and really engage and earn data. And it's a pretty exciting time to be doing that, because I think, as you quite rightly said in your introduction, that customer data landscape and creating relevance for individuals is absolutely top of mind at the moment. Yeah, and I think it's for both of us having been in the industry for more than a decade and on your side, being part of creating an industry — so thank you, thank you for that — was CRM as a landscape hasn't really changed a great deal since the '90s from a technology standpoint, it's the tools that we have have gotten an awful lot better. I'd hope, in most cases. For some, perhaps not. But the mechanism is really about: how do I store, process, and use customer data? And I think one of the key challenges that is really being exposed by a lot of people, be that changes to Facebook's attribution because of pixel tracking, or changes to kind of the compliance landscape because of GDPR or the California Consumer Privacy Act, is there's a roll inside of an organization for a data protection officer, but it's a compliance role. It's… They're someone who is legally responsible for customer data. But strategically, very few businesses actually run towards customer data and have a strategy of: how am I going to get this data from the customer? How am I going to use this? And how is it going to benefit the customer as well as the business? And they really treat this as a technology project or a compliance project, so the moment we're talking about how we capture data, it becomes the CIO, the head of legal, and a whole bunch of job titles that aren't already in revenue creation roles, they're in operational roles, more often than not. And I think the missing trick is how do you bring in that element of gamification? That element of fun. That element of not just having trust, but something that a customer wants to do. Not ten different tick boxes on a website just to allow the types of pixels that you do want to be tracked in. That I'll give you consent for marketing, but not for advertising. That's a compliance way of looking at the world. It's for a customer. They need to want to give you data and know, "what am I going to get in return?" And I think that's the topic of conversation where I think we can both say that there's work to be done, and that, for the work that we're doing with clients right now, we do phenomenal things in personalization at Emarsys. And I couldn't be more proud of what we've been able to achieve as a business. But how we get data into the system is often a really clunky conversation for brands, because there isn't one person that's really an owner of: "what's my strategy for getting customer data?" And it touches a lot of different people. So in your own experience, why is it that people find this such a complex topic to get to grips with when it's such a foundational point of their business, when it comes to how they're going to scale and how they're going to grow? I think, from my point of view, and this might not be a very popular thing to say, but I think as marketers, we've been a bit lazy, to be honest with you. We've just taken the view that we want all the data we can get from anywhere and, you know, we'll get that fed in. And if there's some pesky compliance situation around back then, you know, someone else can deal with it. But just give me everything. And we haven't thought about it from the customer's point of view. And, you know, customers have started to realize that this data actually, you know, is being used in a way that maybe they're not comfortable with. It's being shared in a way that maybe they didn't anticipate. And the scale of the data that's being gathered and transmitted and shared over the years of this kind of gold rush, if you like, is enormous, and they're taking action. You know, consumers — I think in Forrester's latest technographics survey, or whatever it is — they're capturing data like 77% percent of consumers are using at least one tool to protect their privacy, to stop organizations from getting their data. You know, they're starting to understand the value that their data has, as well as how they don't want it to be used. And legislators are starting to get involved, you know, quite aggressively. They're starting to get involved to limit how data can be used. You know, GDPR, CCPA, PDPA in Singapore, CPRA coming, you know, the more stringent CCPA, the Biometric Privacy Acts, you know, and how voice and other kind of data can be used are coming in. And they're not just increasing in scope, but they're becoming more and more enforceable. And, you know, the technology companies are responding, if you like. And I was really interested to see just how quickly Apple have moved to use privacy as, you know, right front-and-center of their latest ad campaign, and say, we are protecting your privacy. You have to opt in now, not opt out, to your data being used that's gathered through various of our tools, if So I think we've kind of brought this on ourselves, to an extent, by intrusive marketing, if you like. And what we need to do is stand back and say, okay, maybe I should only be using the data that I really need, and I should focus on: how do I get that data in a way that recognizes it doesn't belong to me, it belongs to the individual. And so I need to be transparent. I need to ask them for that data directly rather than go and buy it from someone else who might have acquired it without that transparency, potentially. And if I'm going to do that and I'm going to put that front and center, what's in it for the customer? I've got to be really clear if I want them to give me my data — or their data — what's the benefit to them? And how do I make it easy for them to understand that, easy for them to provide the data, easy for them to see the results of that, and keep giving me permission to use it? Because that's the other thing. You know, people are taking away permission from data if it's not clear the value that they're getting. So, you know, I think it's a huge opportunity, actually, for marketers to move away from the compliance mindset and lobbing this challenge, as you say, over to the data protection officer, to stand back and to say, okay, what is my data strategy? What data is most valuable to me to produce a better result for the customer? How do I explain that to them and get permission to gather and use it? And I think the organizations that do that well, that do it in a trustworthy way, that demonstrate the value that they're providing, and that build that data asset, if you like, that they have permission to use, that's come directly through that mechanism, are actually going to be the ones that win going forward, because everyone else that's trying to find a way around the latest regulations or whatever, are totally missing the point that these regulations are in response to consumer sentiment and what consumers want. And so therefore, if they find a way around it, they're still going to aggravate the consumer, and stop having access to the data. Agreed and I think one of the biggest things that people are now starting to realize is that, customer data is also a competitive advantage, and that, when you actually start looking at having a real strategy around how I'm going to capture, use, and drive value from customer data, not just for my business, in terms of a better business outcome — be that more sales, bigger values, lower costs — but for the consumer, how do I differentiate between my brand and the tens of thousands of other people who are out there proclaiming to offer the same product, the same service? It all comes down to not just about price and promotion, but that utility. What value do I bring as a brand? That you can't personalize, you can't actually help people along that journey and to stand now without actually having the ability to understand who this customer is, have they interacted with you before, and what are their likes and dislikes. And I think this is the thing that I'm most interested in terms the types of products and services people like 3radical are bringing forward, is breaking down this old-school concept of, okay, what data do I need for reporting? Like, I want demographic, I want age. So I'm going to ask someone for that date of birth. I'm going to ask someone for their gender. I'm going to ask someone for their address. You're a fashion brand and they haven't bought from you yet. Why would someone give you this information before they bought from you, just to give you what you need to inform your ads and inform your marketing in terms of getting a conversion. Like, what's in it for me as a customer? And to move away from that, what's my checklist, and what's the information that I would want, and to really looking at your needs, and to saying, how do I start building a relationship on the minimum possible information that I need from a customer, and use that as a building block, and a springboard, to stop appending all of their purchases, all of their behaviors, to that initial building block, and treating it as a progressive, ongoing thing, rather than a singular event. And I think that's the bit that I think you guys have done a phenomenal job, is to not just give people one tactic or one opportunity to capture data from a customer, but to look at, how do you layer it into different experiences across different channels? To look at something that is appropriate to the channel and appropriate to the situation in terms of getting the customer to give you their email address, their mobile number, or postal address, and then, to then give you the consent to market and personalize it for them. It would be great to just talk about some of the more practical examples of what people are using i technology that you're providing to to actually achieve in terms of, what are these experiences, and what kind of channels are they being provided in to help customers chip away at how they get access to customer data and how to use it within the brands? Sure. And I think — just your first point about data being a competitive advantage — I think, you know, it absolutely is. And what we're seeing with kind of the antitrust cases that are happening against the likes of Amazon and Google and Facebook, you know, to me that's kind of the foundation of that issue, is data. It's the amount of data that those organizations control and how they use it. And if you look at the Amazon case in particular, as it relates to retailers, you know, the effectively — the accusation — of Amazon gathering this data that they don't pass onto the underlying retailer and using it to build competitive products and to sell those competitive products to that retailer's customer, you know, is kind of at the heart of demonstrating how powerful data can be and why brands need their own data and to have their own relationship, if you like, with that individual. So absolutely a competitive advantage. But how do you get it? And it is about being, I think, you know, as Forrester would say, "in the moment," with the right kind of experience, with the clarity of the value to the consumer of giving that data at that point in time and not asking for too much. You know, don't try and get everything right up front where it's not clear what the value is going to be. So, you know, just examples like, I don't know, if you're a clothing brand, then, you know, someone hasn't bought from you yet, it's kind of justifiable and understandable to provide a really cool experience where people can kind of swipe through the kind of clothes and styles that they like, and the kind that they don't, to build a bit of a profile in a very kind of fun way and flexible way that would enable the brand to add value to them by showing them things they think they would like on the basis of that, rather than the consumer having to make their own journey through the entire stock, if you like. So that's the kind of interactive experience you might deliver early in a journey with that kind of customer to get kind of preference data, if you like. As you move through the journey, you know, then maybe you've got the opportunity to start asking them why they are interested in particular things at particular times and start to get that kind of richness of data that you can only get directly from the individual. And they've already started to see value from you. You've already started to give them relevance and an easier way of navigating to the outcome that they want. So maybe they're now ready to tell you more to further improve that experience, if you like, and then you can get into richer and richer data over time using different experiences. So obviously, different industries, different types of sale, you would use different techniques. But it's all about injecting into the journey at the right time kind of a non-intrusive, fun way of gathering the data that the consumer can see the value in you having at that moment in time. I think it's a fantastic way of looking at it and think there's one bit that you picked up on that I think is a really important bit to expand on. It comes back to Brendan Witcher, who is the Principal Analyst for Retail at Forrester, was speaking at our Retail Renaissance conference recently, and just said, look, Stitch Fix have a 30-minute new customer onboarding questionnaire. It takes you 30 minutes to actually go through and describe what it is you're looking for before they'll help you figure out the types of products that they'd be able to help you with as a fashion brand. Now, it's an extreme example, a lot of people will say, but I'd argue it's really not. Like, we have clients in the UK like muscle food, where they're providing customers with milk and some mealboxes, understanding the dietary needs and requirements of people, and more importantly, why are you buying this? Are you looking to lose weight, gain weight, or, like, what's going on in-between? And there are different types of customers with different needs. And helping a customer clearly understand: if you give me data, I will know what to not send you. I think it's people looking at, how do I help personalize the experience? Personalization isn't just giving people what they want. It's to make sure you avoid giving people experiences that they don't want so they actually engage with you more meaningfully over a longer period of time. And I think it's a huge opportunity for people to look at very, very basic profiling, to say, I have these top four categories of my business. These are my top four product offerings. Tell me one, two, three, or four, which ones you do or which ones you don't want to see. We're now seeing clients who are actually taking the approach of saying, let us know what we don't want to send you. Like, what are the things we should be avoiding to send you so that we can help narrow the net? Because consumers have choice. If you have hundreds or thousands of products and tens of thousands or millions of customers, the right product to the right customer at the right time with the right price in the right channel is incredibly complex. You need data to be able to do that. Helping clients understand that that is your objective when asking them for data helps the client understand that this isn't a business that's interested in just selling me stuff. This is a business that's interested in providing me value. I think, just to extend that point, so one of our clients in the US is FKA HoMedics. So they sell different types of products to help people. You know, they sell massage chairs and all sorts of different things that would help people with different health conditions or different issues that they have. Now, you know, if they can understand better why someone is buying a particular one of their products, then they can add value in multiple ways. One way they can add value is presenting that person with other products that might help for that particular condition or issue that they've got. Another way that they can help, though, is provide additional context, you know, relevant documents, relevant information, articles, all of those kind of things as part of their own ongoing customer communications, if you like, that aren't to do with product selection or selling something today, they're to do with adding value to that customer as part of their relationship with HoMedics, if you like, and maybe even connecting them into a community of people with similar issues or things that they want to talk about, where they can get support and value. So value comes in lots of different forms. You know, one is absolutely making sure the right products in the right channel at the right price and everything is there for them, and not things that are irrelevant, but you can layer on more and more value as well, clearly by all of the other things that you can do to make that customer have a better experience, and to provide them with more of a holistic benefit from working with you as an organization, maybe, rather than one of your competitors. And only you can do that, because only you have that data. You've built that trust. You've given them the opportunity to give you that data in the right way, at the right time, in a fun and rewarding way. And so you've got it, and you can do that, and your competitors can't. And I think it's a timely and relevant that you bring up Amazon. So given that, given the growth trajectory and everything that's going on, one of the favorite quotes of Jeff Bezos is: "Don't be scared by your competitors, be scared by what your customers want." It's: don't look at what's going on elsewhere, look at what's going on in your customers and the information that you can get from them, and how you can use it as a competitive advantage. When I'm talking about customer data, it's not just about having their name and email address. It's about being able to have the ability and the permission to append things like behaviors. What are they browsing? What are they interacting with? What are they purchasing? What are they returning? Customer data is all of the information that you hold about a customer. It's not just that personal information. It's about all of those associated behaviors that go with it. And in this increasingly complex regulatory framework that we're being given, you don't have the ability to analyze those behaviors and analyze those purchase patterns without permission. Exactly. And you don't have the ability to then start looking at how to send them to third parties like to Facebook and like Google, which — it's going to become permission-based in the future because of the changes from Apple like you've highlighted. Apple's iOS14 update means that things like pixel tracking — and Google have also announced the same changes — just having a pixel on your Website for 13 different vendors to all get their signals back about what people are browsing, what people are purchasing, is no longer socially acceptable. It's now something that consumers are aware of, consumers are freaked out by, and consumers are using dark mode, consumers are using ad blockers. Consumers are now saying: "I do not need to give you permission to use your website." There are huge, huge changes going on. But one of the things that you mentioned that I think is really, really interesting to pick up on is — particularly in the HoMedics example is — we work with a lot of beauty brands, some kind of fast-growing disruptive brands like Revolution Beauty, but also some really well-established brands like Charlotte Tilbury, who acquired this year for more than a billion by a fantastic business at building perfumes, cosmetics, and things that retailers and retail partners have been selling for them. They're a wholesale business. Charlotte Tilbury are a direct-to-consumer business, and their competitive advantage is they know what their customers want. And exactly the same as in the example that you highlighted from the US customer. What they've done incredibly well is understand not just the product that the customer is buying, but why are you buying this? Like, what is it you're looking to achieve? What is it that might be a perceived problem? What is it that might be a certain look or style you're going for? And they orientate their business around: I know that a customer who's buying this product is this type of customer at this stage in my life, looking for this type of thing. I also know that this type of customer is probably her daughter, and they are very, very different types of customers. And understanding how you can actually use this data to build a better picture of who your customers are, and then slowly but surely, whether it's online or whether it's in-store where you're speaking with a beauty consultant, they will ask for permission to be able to actually engage with you, to say: I want to make sure that when you leave this experience, I send you something of value. I send you how to use this, how to use this cosmedic. I send you the things that go with it. I will give you advice on how to apply it. I will give you advice on how to care for your skin. All of these types of things are layered into: I will give you as a customer something of value as long as you give me the data that I need to stop communicating with you upon those terms. And it's that thing that businesses aren't quite looking at is to say, whether it's in your Facebook channel or your Instagram ads or whether it's on your website, whether it's in your mobile app, or whether it's actually in your physical stores where people are engaging with you, how do you look at each and every one of those touchpoints as an opportunity to engage with the customer, to ask for permission to opt them in to marketing programs or loyalty programs that use that data to provide something of value, not just try and sell a product? Exactly, exactly. And I think you make a good point as well about in-store. And we've done quite a few things where, either in-store using kiosks with, guided by the staff there, or using iPads or tablets of some sort, you know, to help in gathering data through an interaction with a customer kind of live, is a point where, in the right situation — clearly you don't want to get in the way of the customer journey to purchase, if you like — but in the right situation, you can gather really rich information to enable a better customer experience and added value going forward. I think the key there, and one of the benefits, I think, of more recent developments, is kind of being able to tie that data together with recognition across channels. And so, you know, the kind of work that's been done, and the kind of technology that's available to do that now, I think can help bring that data with permission together in a way that can add even more value to each individual consumer, if you like, no matter what channel you've got the data in or in what context. One hundred percent. I think I also want to touch on something that you said previously, that I think is incredibly important, which is: this isn't a one-time exercise. Customer data is given freely, but can also be revoked. And a lot of brands still have this conceptual problem of understanding: it's not your data, it's the customer's data. And I think one of the concepts that you've kind of trumpeted previously is that you're simply renting it rather than owning it. And you need to treat it as such — and brands do — on more than one occasion. Yeah, it's I think understanding the continual value that you're going to give on one side, and making sure that you're not intrusive or creepy on the other, is absolutely fundamental. So, you know, I think as I said earlier on, you know, one of the issues that has led us to the situation we're in, if you like, is intrusive use of data. So I think there needs to be some real thought given to, you know, customer journeys. You need to ask how much personalization people want. You know, that's a perfectly reasonable question. Would you like me to do this, that, or the other for your experience? And if so, please give me the relevant data to enable that, because some people don't want that. Some people find it intrusive. The vast majority of people do want it to some extent, appropriately, if you like. And then it's thinking about all the things that you would think about before — even if you were just doing an email program or whatever — frequency of contact. You know, relevance and all of those things where people have been unsubscribing from from email lists for long enough, I think people can translate that into them saying, I'm sorry, you're not going to use any of my data now. It's a similar concept. If you don't show value, if you don't consider how intrusive or otherwise you're being and you don't build that into a relevant customer journey for that individual, you can expect to have the use of that individual's data revoked. And that's a huge cost because you've worked hard to get it. And having it will give better business results, if you like, for you as a brand by giving a better experience to the customer. So people need to, I think, give a lot of thought, not just to that data strategy, but to their engagement strategy using that data. Very much so. And I think there's one really, really important point you've mentioned that I think it's something that we should amplify a little bit more, which is, there are different types of customer. And there is a different frequency, and a different cadence of communication. So how regularly you send someone and what you send them can be different on a customer level. And just because someone doesn't want to sign up for your daily newsletter alert, your back-in-stock alert, your new-in-stock alert, as well as your sale promotion, but also be a member of your VIP program to get early access to new product. That's okay. Like, some people don't necessarily want that level of frequency and that level of engagement. And trying to figure out how to get more engagement with the customer is important, but recognizing when that is not an option with a certain type of customer is equally important to make sure that we're deploying our resources around the customers that do give us this information, that do have that higher level of engagement, and differentiating between who is it that is a fully engaged customer and who is it that is just a customer. There are some people who have bought and are very unlikely to buy from you again. There are other people who haven't bought from you yet, but all of the signals are that they are going to be one of your best customers. And there are different types of customers in different type of signals, and how brands adjust their engagement strategies to give people the ability to modulate or moderate both the channels and the frequency of communication that they get is a really, really important point that I think a lot of people should embrace, to say your strategy needs to be a little bit more holistic in recognizing that customers are in control. It's a very dangerous and nervous thing for a lot of people to say, well, I'm not… I've knocked out my customer journey. I know what it looks like. To a large extent, yes. But you don't know what every single customer's journey is going to look like across which channels. But you can manage those things. You can't manipulate them, you can manage them by reducing friction and adding value. What you can't do is take someone from one path and forcibly move them onto a different one. And as more and more people are recognizing this, they're seeing an opportunity such as we've talked about, to say, what is it that I can do to constantly engage with my customers and actually ask them what is it that they want to receive from me? Are they still happy to receive it from me? And if I have a new product offering, how did I do? The post-purchase feedback, particularly as we're coming up to the kind of holiday period, I think the opportunities aren't just, how do I get an email address for someone who is a visitor to turn them into a known user? But: what happens to a customer after they've purchased? How many people out there currently have a strategy? To look at the product, to look at the purchasing experience, and to look at the customer experience of: how well did you do with the 45% or more of people who are first-time customers to your brand this year? What are you going to do with them to understand how good that experience was? And what are you going to learn about your product, your service, and that experience, that's going to help make a better experience for that customer and other customers as we move forward. So are you starting to see customers now looking at this as not just a one-time exercise, but looking at it as a different way of capturing information on an ongoing basis? Or is it still fairly early days? No, absolutely. I think, you know, one of the things that, from our background and and experience to date, that we are very clear on is that this has to be a progressive journey that people go on, and you can't ask everything to start with. You should only ask for relevant information that's clear why there's value to the consumer to give it. And that will change over parts of the customer journey and it'll change between one-off customers, and repeat customers, and with frequency, and other things about what's the right data to ask for. So it needs to be progressive. It needs to be injected differently at different parts of the relationship, if you like, with the consumer. But absolutely at the heart of it all is: there's no harm in asking. And a lot of people infer, if you like, I believe, too much based on observed data when they could actually get more accurate data potentially by asking. Obviously being clear on "why" and what the value exchange is going to be. And I'm quite, quite a big advocate of asking, "How would you as a customer like me to communicate with you going forward? How much personalization would you like? Would you like me to do this or that?" You know, reasonably early on explaining the the value and the benefits that the customer's going to get. And then base the customer journey on the answers to some of those things. And of course they change, so you can keep asking. So don't always just infer, do ask as well, I would say, and make a journey progressive, and only gather data that's, A) going to enable you to provide a better experience for the consumer, and B) at the right time, if you like, for that consumer to understand why they're giving it to you. And don't be afraid if they don't want to give you the information, and don't be afraid if they say no. I think it's… Absolutely. Absolutely. I think, just wrapping up and in summary, I think that the key thing for me is, there are many businesses that have, as I said at the beginning, have really looked at "how do I get customer data?" as a compliance issue. Looked at it as an issue for technologists to say, "what is my strategy for storing data? Who has access to that data? How are we going to process that data? How do I make sure that, effectively, I'm not going to get sued?" All of these are very, very important considerations. I'm not saying that they don't have a place within the business. They are fundamentally important, particularly given the scale of the fines in play. However, on the reverse side of that is, it is a competitive advantage and part of your strategic initiative to be more customer-centric, to be more focused, to be driven in terms of growth. Particularly in retail, growth comes from more customers buying more often. If you can't attract customers and get them to buy from you again and again with greater frequency at high values, you are at a disadvantage. And what we need to be looking at is, how do I get the data I need to make sure that I'm offering really personalized, really relevant experiences to my customers to deliver the predictable, profitable outcomes my businesses are desiring. I can't do that unless the customer gives me the ability to use my marketing channels. And what's happening now with advertising channels are also moving towards this permission-based modus — not just for targeting, but even for tracking. Which means that the whole world, whether we like it or not, is shifting towards consumers having choice over what they do and don't share with you, and having the ability to revoke that access as and when they choose, not as and when you choose. Yeah. I think that as brands such as Apple have made huge shifts into leading into this wind and saying, how do I use this as an opportunity to stand out from the crowd — be that, a Chinese handset manufacturer or otherwise — to look at reassuring customers and saying, look, I'm not scared by this change, I'm embracing this change. And start looking at what's in it for the customer to give me information about what they like. But as you said, with the example of swiping and letting people know, letting you know what they don't like is equally important as well. So this is such a fascinating area and such a huge, hugely impactful area as well. I'm really glad that you've taken the time to do this, but I'm really glad that you tried to help create the CRM category in Europe, and then, this second, looking at its next natural evolution in terms of privacy and customer growth. So anything from you in terms of wrap-up, and for people who want to know a little bit more about 3radical and your offering, what's the best way to get in touch with you guys? Absolutely. No, I would just say that, you know, as in the late '90s, early 2000s, when there was a huge opportunity to bring different channels together around an understanding of the customer and to become much more more efficient, if you like, right now I believe that marketers have a huge opportunity to get on the front foot with regard to customer data, how they gather and use it, and how they explain and demonstrate the value to customers for giving them the permission to use that for a period of time. And, you know, I think I'm seeing it and I'm delighted that I'm seeing it, that marketers are absolutely thinking about their data strategy and how they're going to move into that totally different mindset. It's a totally different mindset to give me all of the data I can, just get it from anywhere, and, you know, I'll see what I can do with it, into what do I need to add value to my customer? What is the value I'm going to give them back for it? And then how do I acquire that directly in a relationship of trust? And to me, you know, this is kind of core to the new battleground for brands going forward, will be how will they do that? Because as you say, if they don't have access to that data anymore, then the experience that they can deliver to their customers will not be as good as their competitor's experience that does have the data. And that's a big shift. So it's exciting to be, I think, at another pivotal point of of marketing and data-based marketing, if you like, and customer experience. In terms of 3radical, you know, we're really excited to be helping brands create experiences that gather data, that are progressive, and that fit into the relevant part of the customer journey and to help them on this transition, if you like. And to learn more, please do get in touch. David.Eldridge@3radical.com. Or obviously the website is just: 3radical.com. That's the number three, radical, dot com. Awesome. Thank you so much for making time.