How Data Will Shape The Future Of Marketing

Now we're going to have a deep dive into data. To tell us how they're using data to drive loyalty and revenues, please welcome up Nick Tran from Farfetch, Natasha Curtin from Bombay Sapphire, and Victoria Prew from Hurr. Hi everyone, thank you so much for joining me today. So to kick off, it'd be great if you could just each share a little bit of background about yourself and tell us about your current role. Nick? Yes, I'm somewhat new to London. I came here last year. Prior to coming to Farfetch, I was the global CMO of TikTok, small startup that began four years ago. Before that I was at another small company, it was Disney. And then I was at Samsung. So I've spent my time with just small startups that no one has heard of. Hi, everyone. I'm Tory Prew or Victoria if I'm in trouble. I started the Hurr journey four years ago. We started and still run the UK's largest peer-to-peer network, so women can basically rent and lend their wardrobes. We then expanded into a hybrid model of fashion rentals, so we power fashion rentals for 130 exclusive brand partners in the UK, everyone from Coperni, Nancy through to Mulberry, Hugo Boss, and then also have a white label service that powers a number of world class retailers such as Selfridges, Matches, John Lewis, and Flannels, where in effect they copy and paste our technology, we do all the really unsexy stuff that makes rental scale. Thank you, I've had some of your dresses, so thank you. I'm Natasha Curtin. I'm the Global VP for Bombay Sapphire Gin. So responsible on how and where and why we're drinking gin in different places in the world and the advertising through to the innovation. I've worked at L'Oreal, LVMH, Innocent, and Lavazza, so a real blend of beauty and coffee and alcohol. The good stuff! Everything we need! Brilliant. Victoria, I'd love to start with you. I know that with Hurr you really started out in occasion-wear rental. So how do you use insights and data to really launch into new specialist categories? Yeah, so we have what we call the Hurr ecosystem. So as I mentioned, we have peer-to-peer network, which is great for scale, great for community, most importantly, great for data and insights. So we have quite a unique position where I can tell you what Sophie Smith in Birmingham is already renting for Christmas Day because some of our customers are very, very well organized. So we have a kind of forward-looking view on demand and then we can kind of plug the supply. So we're able to basically aggregate all of our peer-to-peer learnings, either historically or forward-looking, and then share them with our retail partners and with our brands. So to give you guys an example, this time last year we started seeing ski wear boom through our peer-to-peer network where people started listing their Goldbergh two-pieces, some crazy nineties vintage pieces, and we spot every Monday morning, we're reporting those trends back into the wider business. We then pick up the phone to our brand partners saying, "Look, we can see ski wear booming. There's a massive opportunity for you guys, can you send us stock?" and then they can capitalize on that demand too. So the power of our business really lies in how we feed those insights into a wider business. We've done ski wear, we've also spotted loads of really weird and wonderful trends. The Y2K corsets, corsets boomed this time last year, bucket hats, everything in between from kind of those massive categories through to those small and micro trend moments as well. And Nick, how do you use data at Farfetch to really pick up on those pockets of demand and drive brand strategy? Yeah, I don't think it's going to be too different, but the one big caution that I typically see is that there are times where marketers especially lean too much on data and they actually start to become overly reliant on it and they start to lose their gut/eye test of things. A couple of examples in my previous roles, when I was at TikTok, we initially thought that there were roughly 80 different profiles that people would have for their For You page. By the time we got to a billion daily active users and we had all this data coming in, we realized that there were about 80 different profiles of the different consumers. So it was exactly what we anticipated in the beginning. And when it comes to Farfetch, I honestly feel that like data should be an enabler and not the thing that you're reliant to because you don't want to optimize your brand to death. And having that balance is really key. Natasha, what's your view on that and how are you using data and insights to shape new product launches, flavors, ranges at Bombay Sapphire? I think really to echo a lot of what's just been said, I think we use data, so we'll use standard industry trends that shows us that premium gin or flavors that are flying off the roof. But it gets interesting when you then overlay that with a consumer lens and real data, social listening as to why and also some cultural pieces because, for example, Barbie's really hot and exciting, but should we launch a pink gin and should we and could we? And those are the sort of things like you've got to have gut, you've got to have a DNA, you've got to have a vision to make sure you do the right things. So I think data is really good to help you, but it's a really dangerous place if it then informs you and it takes away the skill of the markettier or the role of the brand. I think we're all sort of guilty of being in these meetings where something is hot right now, what are you going to do? And in my category in alcohol, it does take longer to create and sometimes that's a really useful buffer because it takes time to turn that product around. But in some of the faster ones, there's a real immediacy and I think that skill of art and science as a markettier is really important or else you're forever chasing. So I think it's a real sort of skill about how you manage it internally and also sort of from a leading way. And can you tell us about some of the trends you've seen recently in your space that have shaped and informed some of your new launches? We've seen a lot around premiumization so during COVID, if people aren't going to go out and drink, they want it to be something really exceptional, they want an experience, and we all became sort of maestros of making cocktails at home. So if I'm going to go outside, I want to have a really great cocktail. So we saw a real trend towards premiumization of gins and cocktail bars. We also saw a big sort of thirst for sustainability. And I think the skill then is combining that into understanding what flavors are trending, but how you do it in a sustainable way. So we just released a super premium gin, which is based on a real lemon variant from a particular area. But it was only then we went and did a lot of social listening, people were really interested in doing that, but they also wanted to make sustainable cocktails, but they had no idea how. And again, this is back to that data points, we went and spoke to bartenders and the whole rise of the espresso martini, which I'm sure we've all had several of, this spent coffee that's just hanging around in bars and we've realized you can use that for another ingredient which makes a different cocktail. So I think it's about trying to understand the trend and always asking why, why, why? And could we do it, but should we do it as well as that is the biggest mantra we have when we sit with these data meetings. So no Barbie-themed gins, then? Shame. Victoria, I'd love to talk to you about your value proposition at Hurr because you have to make sure it's affordable for the renter, but also profitable for the seller as well. So how do you make sure you balance that? Yeah, absolutely it's a very fine line between someone renting a garment versus buying the fast fashion rip off, which is obviously what we are trying to avoid. So we spend a lot of time on the pricing sensitivity between, sounds boring, but a 4- and an 8-day rental versus a 10-day and a 14-day rental. We recently launched 30 day rentals because we're on a big journey of taking rental away from purely occasion. We've done that very, very well into much more of an everyday habits and behavior. So ultimately Hurr is a free market. The lender, if I own this dress and I'm renting it, I can choose margin or I can choose volume, so we have lenders that undercut each other on price, in true marketplace fashion, and then all brands and retailers really trust us as the experts when it comes to pricing, so it's a very, very fine balance. We have to constantly review our algorithm that prices our 4-day up to our 30-day rental and in the near future we're looking quite heavily into demand-based pricing, so I think if you look at Airbnb, they're obviously the leaders in this space, and we're going to be looking at doing something similar very shortly. Nick, I'm curious to know what you're doing to really drive customer loyalty and appeal to a more mainstream audience. I know you've talked about bringing the fun back so tell us about that and what you're doing. Yeah, I still remember the times when you had high luxury fashion break into like mainstream culture. So the images I had in my head were when like the supermodels were breaking into big Super Bowl ads like Pepsi or when they were featured in like George Michael's music videos. The thing that I recognize now is that that era is, sort of, lost. And we don't really see as many of them that aren't influencers that are breaking into mainstream culture. So what I'm hoping to do is bring a little bit more fun back into the industry as a whole and ensure that working with our various boutiques and our partners and the brands that are on the platform, we make sure that people in pop culture recognize that fashion matters and that luxury can be anything to anyone, anywhere. So that's one of the elements that we really are trying to bring to life. And then what's the other part of the question. Appealing to a more mainstream audience? Oh, yes. Basically, you've just got to find ways to hack into culture in a way that's relevant. In my experience, there's always been this misconception that you have to have a big celebrity like a Ryan Reynolds to like really pull and like drive that kind of momentum for a brand. But in reality, we've done lots of case studies to see that any brand, whether they're big or not, whether they have influencers or not, can actually break through if you find the right moments to insert yourself in the conversations. Natasha, you talked earlier about picking up on certain trends and the 'should we, could we?' sort of question that you always ask, but how do you make sure you are picking up on those trends while staying true to Bombay Sapphire's premium heritage. I think is about having a DNA and a vision that we all buy into, and that's just a good filter. So when things come on the table like, does this feel like us? And also would it be around in ten days or ten months, ten years? And I think quite quickly you realize what's a trend and what feels lasting and legacy. I think it's also speaking to people who know better than us. So we go to bartenders and say, like, what's happening? And they'll give us clues and trends that we would never have seen otherwise. And again, speaking to consumers. So I can see why something is selling, but it's only if I sit down with a consumer and she tells me that she likes the pop of a cork and she likes that little bit of smoke that comes when she pops cork. That I would never have seen in data. So it's about that really light bit and how they like how it feels in hand. So I think it's just smartly using data to see something, but it's got to confirm your gut, it's got to confirm your DNA, and then just seeking out people who will know and whatever you designed and wanted your brand to be, how people are using it in the real world is often so different. So we're always trying to go round people's houses and watch how they create drinks or go and sit with bartenders and ask them why they did this or why did you pick that? So we're really irritating people to go out with and my partner is always saying like, can we just order a drink? But I'm always interested why, why, why? So I think it's just the curiosity. But you've got to know your DNA and you've got to know your vision and you've got to know that as your touchstone in everything. So as a brand leader, how much of your time is spent out with customers trying to observe those behaviors? Probably not enough. I think it's really easy. You get stuck into the thinking, or the strategy, or the room. We'll always do it on the big-touch moments when we do innovation or campaigns, but I think all the time when you walk around, you see it online or you see what's trending, you see what's what your people are wearing or talking about. So a bit through osmosis but I've never regretted spending time with consumers or with bartenders who will tell me things, or they'll just give you a light that you didn't even think about and a different point of view on it. So, not enough, but every time I do, it's something we say like, "we need to do this more." So we go and do like safaris, or we'll go and give people incentives to go and actually take their friends out and tell me, like, why do you like this drink, why don't you? So we keep on coming up ways of trying to incentivize ourselves to push and understand more and more. And Victoria, you launched a 'keep it forever' option last year. What sparked that move? Yeah. So we are a rental platform first and foremost. But once a garment has had 20 to 30 rentals and we've kind of driven in as much ROI from rental as possible, we obviously want to close that loop on waste and resell is obviously a much more established behavior when it comes to circular economy. So for me it was partly closing the loop on waste. Our customers also want it. We also have a lot of data about how rental is the number one form of discovery in fashion. So for a lot of our retailers and brands, I know that if Victoria Prew rents a Palm Angels hoodie for the first time or a Casablanca top or whatever, a Vampire's Wife dress, she is statistically 70%+ more likely to go on to purchase from that brand once she's had an affiliation. So we have huge, huge datasets that show that rental a) doesn't cannibalize full price sales and b), it is one, if not the number one, way to access a new customer base that might not have the purchasing power just yet. But in five years' time is going to be one of the biggest customer bases, so we spend a lot of time thinking about rental as the number one form of discovery and also if I fall in love with that Vampire's Wife dress, and I know that it fits me perfectly, I'm going to wear it season after season, year after year, of course we want to be able to facilitate that transaction for our community and also for our brands and retailers too. So is one of the main priorities for you, really around encouraging people to rent for the first time and really breaking some of those preconceptions around the fact that rentals are only for occasion wear or rental is only for women. Yes, absolutely. Whenever I'm asked what my biggest challenge is, I say four years in, it's the same challenge I had day one: how do you get someone to change their behavior for the very first time? I thought it wouldn't be that hard, if I'm honest. It's actually incredibly hard to do it at scale, in the same way that five years ago, ten years ago, and we all probably sat in a room saying, "Am I really going to rent a stranger's house?" And now, Airbnb perhaps you might go to, before you go to Booking.com. We saw the same obviously in the sharing economy and Uber, it just takes a lot of time and a lot of cash to actually change that behavior. So we have incredibly high organic repeat rates. My biggest challenge today and four years ago is getting someone to rent for the very first time and I know once I get them to rent for the first time, they have a good experience, they're going to come back many more times. And Nick, I know you're pushing further into the resale space and acquired Les Exclusifs in 2021. Can you tell us a little bit about some of the growth opportunities you've seen around that space? Yeah, I think from a macro level, as you see China and the US economy being where they are, plus you have conflicts that have people not looking to buy brand new items as much, this resale market is likely to boom. There used to be this concern that if I bought something resale, I'm not seen as being like a true luxury purchaser or I'm not in that realm of having that badge that people have when they buy those things. I think with the sustainability angle, it's given people a lot of ability to just do the resale and feel like there's a bigger purpose to it other than just being like cheap. And that's going to open up probably the base a lot more significant than it has over the last few years. Natasha, can you tell us a little bit more about Bombay Sapphire's 'Saw This, Made This' campaign and how you're using AI to really amplify human creativity? Behind this campaign, we were really interested in using AI to showcase human creativity and not talk about this competition, which was a lot of the dialogue. So we we worked with Baz Luhrmann, who was we picked and worked with him because he's such an incredible visionary but also it was based on this idea. So I think all campaigns, all things have to have a human idea at the base of them and the idea of this was that we believe that creative inspirations are everywhere, you've just got to open your eyes and look for it. So 'Saw This, Made This' was exactly that. That was go out, you see something in the world, and you make something. Baz Luhrmann shared that view with us and he talked about how he was in the middle of the outback as a kid growing up in a tiny population and he literally had to see his inspiration and make it, whether it be at the local cinema, Spiderman, Moulin Rouge, and so on. So he joined us on this, this belief around 'Saw This, Made This' and we got such an incredible response from people were making cocktails out of inspiration, such as the Statue of Liberty, or people were making jewelry pieces based on the tube map. It was amazing the stuff that was coming through that we didn't really know what to do with all this incredible creativity. So we decided to work with the Design Museum and the Chelsea factory in New York to showcase, so we took a lot of this creativity and put it in the walls of galleries. But we wanted to have a showpiece to synthesize it all so we thought we'd work with an AI artist. So she's called Ada and she's a robot who paints. So she's actually spoken to the House of Lords about what is creativity, she has shown at Venice, and she's really interesting about a look at what is creativity. So we used her as a literal paintbrush to take all these creative submissions that we saw and we turned it into a limited edition bottle in her print and we're also trying to demystify what AI is because, it's around, but how do you use it for good, and how to use it for creativity. So we created this bottle, people got to meet her, and what was really important was to make sure that the money went back into a creative fund. So all the bottles sold, they went back to a fund at the Design Museum. So we were interested to see, and it reinforced, "was the work good?" It wasn't about that, it was about showing how you can use AI to fuel creativity, or showcase, versus it being a competition. Do you have an example of the bottle to show us? I don't always carry bottles of gin everywhere but yeah, this was the label that Ada made and that was a response to her reading thousands upon thousands of these creative expressions. So there's pieces of the work in there and we did a limited edition bottle off the back of it, so I'll leave that here for you to drink. I think it's all about a human idea and a good campaign has to be based on, "would you care, are you interested?" And then how data and AI can help exemplify or amplify it, not instead of. Yeah and it's really funneling using AI to funnel back into human creativity. Absolutely. Yeah. Victoria, your biggest customers are Gen Z and millennials. What are some of the most effective channels you're using to really understand the Hurr community and some of those behaviors towards sustainability? We have a very, very engaged customer when it comes to sustainability. We know it's one of the key drivers why people choose to rent on our platform. We have a number of ways staying close to our customer offline and online. Our best channel by country mile is WhatsApp chat. So when you're a top lender at Hurr and you've had hit a certain criteria, you get invited to the VIP WhatsApp chat. We're yet to find a way to like properly, properly scale this up. But it is the most critical part of our business. Our top lenders, we call them power users, are incredibly valuable to us in terms of percentage of our revenue. So the insights we get from that are really, really critical. I also think as well the actual physical meeting of customers in real life, we have quarterly top lender breakfasts and the more we can be doing in real life, the better. All of our C-suite team spend one day, or a half-day, a quarter, calling customers. It's like the first thing that always gets dropped off the diary and if I ever find it slipped out of someone's diary, I'm annoyed because actually, to your point, when there's a million things on and everything is on fire all the time, when you're trying to scale a company, the number one disconnect that seems to happen is a C-suite team from the customer, because it's another thing to think about or another meeting to be in. Whereas I think for Hurr, because we are trying to change behaviors, the closer we can be to our customer, the better. So I think, like you say, you can have all the data in the world or the sentiment analysis that of course we cover off, but there's nothing quite like a WhatsApp chat message of what people actually think. I mean, you mentioned the importance of the WhatsApp chat messages, but are you using or do you plan to use AI at all to make that process more efficient? Yeah, so we run our social and all of our social accounts and CS through Dash Hudson. They're a third party tool, expensive in my opinion, worth every single pound. They basically aggregate our customer sentiments. So they grade it from good all the way through to poor and in a really simple way that I can share across the company. If I come in on a Monday morning, it says red 'refund' and it doesn't say green 'beautiful' or 'joyful' or 'loving' Hurr, then we want to know more. So I think right now we're using it through third party platforms. Absolutely over time that's something we want to invest in. Nick, can you tell us about some of the most important metrics you use Farfetch to really understand how the brand is performing? Yeah, they're going to be simple KPIs, but the way I like to look at it is like which are correlated to actual business results. One of the things that we realize is that if you have high aided awareness but you have low consideration and then preference, your efficiency down the funnel is actually pretty poor. So when people are in those situations, they tend to try to drive more awareness and actually acts as a counterproductive way to grow your business overall, because all you're doing is putting your brand in front of more people. But if they don't actually have a preference towards it, you're wasting your money, essentially. So what we realize is that the main KPIs that we should be looking at aren't the ones that most people in business think that you should be driving, but actually those key ones, like just preference. If we just drive preference in key markets and that ratio gets a little bit closer together, then you're more effective throughout the funnel so that when you spend on demand gen and performance and on upper funnel brand marketing, the whole thing works as an ecosystem to drive the value that you're looking to drive. And Victoria, what are some of the most important metrics that you are focused on right now? Customer love, we call it at Hurr, and a whole basket of metrics for that. As I mentioned earlier, repeat rate is the one that I spend most of my time on. For me, once you've got that customer over the first hurdle, how you get them to keep coming back time and time again in a time where customers generally aren't loyal and they want the best product at the best price, how are you going to differentiate and how are you going to keep them in your ecosystem? So for me, anything to do with repeat rate is our bag. Same, around desire, awareness, but the key thing for us is really "would you recommend to friend?" Watching that go up and down is really telling on where you are in people's minds and if they're proud to talk about you. So that's always something that if that goes up or down, there's something always behind it that's interesting. And are there any tips that you have or recommendations or particular initiatives to really increase collaboration between your data teams and the rest of the business? I think it's first of all, having this one vision, one DNA, and that something connected so that you're always funneling towards the same thing. I've done, in previous lifes, 'a day in the life of' so you know the PR team have to go and work on the e-comm team and they have to go and pitch that day and the e-comm guys have to go do a press and they have to actually go meet journalists and do it, so those sort of things may take you out of your world, take you out of your role, and then you end up having a deep respect for your colleagues, but also an understanding of why they do it. So I've always found that quite useful. And how often do you do the 'day in the life of'? Try and do it once a quarter. And the other thing is, we do a 'back to the bar', so we go and try and work behind the bar. So when we are making these cocktails, we understand what it's like when you have a crowd of people shouting at you for a drink and there's a markettier who's told you to do it like this and this and this, you learn pretty fast. To really understand those pressures. So I think it's trying to ground it in reality as much as possible. Victoria? I think it's exactly the same, it's basically the crossing between teams, so customer service, times, product, making sure that someone actually who is on the frontlines of our customer service team actually is in the room, so whether we're having a meeting about a new product, or a new pricing duration, or sensitivity around our 4-day pricing, whatever it might be, I want someone from CS in the room telling me actually what the customers are saying rather than product telling me through them that that's what is being said. I think having the right people in the room and coming from that lens is the most critical thing for us. Otherwise, it's very easy to leave people out of conversations when actually their voices are really needed. And to create silos. One of the things that I've seen throughout my career that's difficult is most teams believe that they need some form of data analysts on their actual teams. So you have a bunch of siloed data analysts throughout the whole organization. And then when that happens, they all grade their own homework and then all the data seems to like conflict with each other. So what I've always tried to do is try to centralize the data org and have that funnel outside of the main sub departments within the marketing team. And how that act is like an objective way to assess how the performance of the entire team is doing overall. The other thing that we've always tried to do is give people the rationale and the key objective of the whole department and normally that's led by a big creative idea, because what I also realize is that when you inspire the data team with a big creative idea, they don't nitpick at why you shouldn't do it and all the little things about like what's happening, that's wrong. They then see that the bigger picture is about this big idea and they want to jump in and help bring that to life. So they're actually your biggest supporter through data when you have that is like the North Star for the for the team. So you almost need to pitch to your data team. Absolutely. That's the first team that I want to pitch to, because if they say, "here are all the flaws," someone else outside, especially the C-suite, they'll pick up on those same cues, and so getting that is like a great first pass, as opposed to pitching the creative team who want to do anything creative anyways, I always like to get someone on the data side to be like, "what do you think about this campaign?" and then they'll literally say like, "well, look at all these things" and then you're like, "oh, I can refine that, address that and then that'll ladder up to the C-suite concerns." I'd love to know from each of you your one big tip on how brands can get smarter in the way they use data within their business. Natasha? I think it's using to help inform your vision and your gut versus replace it. For me, it comes down to the skillsets of teams. In our commercial team, we actually don't have any buyers, we have people from consultant backgrounds or data backgrounds. So how we actually think about people from nontraditional, the move from say, TikTok to Farfetch is super interesting, my background is not fashion, I want people in my business who come from a bit of a broader background, otherwise the answer is always no when you're trying to do things that are slightly out of the box, so I think for me it's having people with those skillsets that balances the art, the science, and also the data piece as well. I always have data- or quant-based teams just try to explain everything to me like I'm five. Because what you'll typically see is that they will try to overwhelm you with like big words and numbers and charts. And when I look at that, I'm like, "what are you actually trying to say?" Because, technically, if you have enough data, you can explain anything, to anyone, any which way you want. But if you have them explain it down to like as if you're five, they have to actually convince you through actual logic and sound reasoning that this makes sense and that the data that lines up. So I always try to like dumb it down for me in the easiest way possible. Such a great tip. Thank you. Any questions from the audience? Nick, I would love to hear from you what you think you've taken most from your TikTok experience through to Farfetch, I know that that's quite a big Gen-z focus at Farfetch as well, so I would just love to know what they were really excited to have you on board with from that previous experience. Yes, a couple of things. I'm mentally thinking of what am I allowed to say and not allowed to say about one area, and what am I allowed to say, and not say about the other as well? So I might be maybe a little bit broad, but a couple of things. One, I do realize that as much as you think you're a unique snowflake, you're not. And, the sad thing is, I could probably put everyone here into a bucket of like 80 different profiles, and you will think that is perfectly fit for you. So taking that knowledge of what I learned at TikTok and applying that to how we look at marketing from the Farfetch perspective, if you look at the wide base of audience members that were in TikTok, which is billions of people, technically, and you whittle down to who's the actual Farfetch consumer, I could probably whittle down the Farfetch consumer to maybe like a dozen profiles, and that's stretching it. So I think understanding people, the nuances, the behaviors, and most people tend to be very similar to each other, is one big learning. And then the other thing that I think is a macro trend that I learned over time at TikTok is that the social media landscape has peaked. And we're at a point now where I genuinely believe that the more you're on those platforms, regardless of which one it is, you will have to realize that it's a diminishing amount of return in terms of the value that you get from the platforms in the sense that they are incentivized to feed you as many different categories of content as they possibly can, so they can monetize that on the advertising side. And so when you go to any of the social platforms and you're being fed all these different things, if you really care about one specific area or category or passionate topic, you only get maybe like 5 to 10% of that. The rest of your feed will be flooded with all the other things that they're trying to advertise. So when you think about it in terms of like the categories that we're in, if I want to talk to a fashion style enthusiast, going to those platforms becomes less meaningful for me as a brand to market and advertise so I need to figure out a separate place, like the Vogues of the world, where I can be very concentrated to get to the audience that cares about fashion and style, and not all the other things. So those are the two biggest takeaways that I've seen. And actually I'd love to extend that question to Victoria and Natasha. What are some of the crucial and most valuable lessons you've learned from your previous careers that you've taken into your business now? I think the power of a good idea and it being long-lasting and it being a human truth, regardless of fashion and trends and where you find it and put it, it's the long-lasting I always try and revert to because it changes so quickly by the time you've created it or done, it's moved. So I always think where's the human behind this and is it important, would anyone be interested? And I think trying to revert to that versus chasing things is something I've taken out of many, many different places. Yeah, that would be it for me. I started the Hurr business because I was the customer that wanted the business to exist and it didn't exist. So I feel very passionately about where we're positioned and the decisions we make. But I'm five years into the journey, just turned 30, and actually the most valuable opinions I want are the 21 year olds that are new to Hurr, and what they think is cool. I'll never forget we had someone apply to Hurr and they were like, "We think that you look like a Gen Z brand, but it doesn't feel authentic" and I was horrified, I was like, the hours we spend in curating our social and I've been told it's not authentic, and it was so interesting, and we actually hired this guy because I was I want him to come and tell us how to get this right. So I think actually trying to work out as you evolve in your career who your target customer is, and then who within your team or who within your wider ecosystem can represent and give you those hard truths because trends and culture move every second of every day and what I think is cool is probably not what the Hurr customer thinks is cool anymore. That's been a real learning. That's like the key to getting a job, you just offend the company and you're like, "you're doing it wrong, but if you hire me, I will do it to it for you brilliantly." It worked! Brilliant, we've got time for one more question. I really liked what you said on brand preference being more important than awareness. What would kind of all three of your biggest tips be for improving brand preference in general? I think if we all knew, we would be… I think people want brands to be authentic. They want them to not flip-flop, they want them to be something that they include in part of their life. So I think as much as possible, knowing who you are, working out, if you can get to be in someone's life and really being very respectful when they do choose and trying to learn is really important and that to me, how you build preference. Consistent, authentic, and just constantly learning. I personally think brands are too humble when it comes to their USP, so I think when you look at e-comm, a lot of businesses look the same. When you look at whether you're going to get a Lyft or an Uber, why am I going to choose one over the other? I think we're always terrified about really standing up for what our key USP are. I actually asked in the office the other day, "give me three reasons why you'd rent on Hurr" and everyone on the team kind of was a bit shy and wasn't really sure what those key three things were. And that's clearly a problem, right? We should all know, the C-suite should know, our grads should know, and sure as hell our customers should know. So I think actually being more clear in like a non kind of marketing way, but like a really direct way about why people should choose you over 'X' or actually what your USP is and what your point of differentiation is. I think we're all kind of looking a bit 'samey' generally in e-comm, and actually clearly communicating that to the customer is pretty critical. I think about that question and look back at my career and what worked at the places that I was at. And the common thread is that: One, I injected so much fun into that category, whether it was consumer electronics, like if you remember the Samsung ads of like 'The Next Big Thing is Here' or is already here, and you're basically comparing yourself against Apple. The whole point wasn't to actually compete against Apple, it was actually to wipe out all the other Android phones and make you think that it was actually against Apple. So you're choosing between those two. So like big stunt-y stuff. And then obviously with Disney and TikTok, it's really about reinforcing the brand to drive that preference, and I always love doing things that are so unexpected, audacious, and just like almost like, stupid to the point where they're like, "why would that work?" And then somehow it works. Those ideas tend to do better in my career. So I like to inject that fun and that magic back into whichever category it is. I think when you do that, people will then see that you're being authentic and that you're being real and that you're actually more fun than any other brands in that realm, and they prefer you more. I've never looked at the USP situation, because when we were at Samsung, no one cared about how fast the phone was or the camera's better, that it had more size, they just wanted to know, like, "are you as fun as it looks like Apple is?" And in that regard, we just had to prove that we were better than all the other Android phones, which no one knew about other than the speeds and feeds, and it was that learning from that earlier point in my career that I realized, the more fun you have as a marketer, the more fun your audience has and the more they're likely to prefer you.