The Leaders Perspective – Strategies To Stay Relevant And Resilient

First and foremost, thanks so much for joining us today. I mean, honestly, I'm incredibly excited to be here in Australia for my second Power To The Marketer. I was like basically from my last year when I left, I was convincing Wil and Kristyn to invite me to this one because honestly, the room and also the collaboration that we have in this market is honestly next level. So thank you so much. So I'm Tom Harris. I'm the Chief Revenue Officer for Emarsys and I'm hosting the first panel, which is the 'Leader's Perspective On Staying Relevant And Resilient'. I think it's a pretty key topic given some of the challenges and pressures that we're facing. And with that, I promise I'm only going to spend a little bit of time during my intro talking about the challenges. The reason for that is because I really think we might be getting a bit bogged down with it. I don't know you tell me if you think I'm wrong, but there's always the cost of living crisis, there's pressure on budgets and I know that we're very, very familiar with that. And myself being more of an optimist, I always look to how businesses are looking at taking those challenges and really working to overcome those, how they can make the most of it. And I think when we look at some of the things that we've been through over the last 2 to 3 years, the businesses that looked at the challenge and how do we zoom out? How do we zoom out from this? I was speaking to one of our friends over at Brisbane Airport, how do we zoom out from the challenge? How do we think about our businesses differently? And then when we are out of the challenge, we're accelerating those results faster, better, stronger, putting that customer more at the center than ever before, and those ones are the ones that are being successful. So just on some of the challenges specifically in this market; the Australian Reserve Bank, they said that there's going to be a dip in GDP per capita, there's also the cost of living is going up, the cost of household goods, household spending there's definitely a squeeze as that retail consumer kind of contracts. They can chat with some of their spending and we're really feeling that. We're feeling that as brands, we're feeling that as business leaders and we're looking at strategies of how we can really start overcoming them. But when you're looking at the future and you're looking at what you know what lies on the horizon for 2024, 2025 and onwards, there are some really key metrics that I'm sure you all know well of, but there's over 2000 migrants coming to Australia at the moment on a daily basis. That's a huge amount of stimulus that's coming into the market and I can tell you, living over in the UK, we've got a massive challenge with that. So that's a really healthy sign. You've then got 1.7 million tourists arriving on the shores of Australia to spend their hard earned money in these fabulous locations. So really heavy buoyancy in terms of the travel sector and people coming in, stimulating the economy. And then as we go into next year, these kind of things that marry together, that really leads to consumer confidence. So again, as an optimist, I'm really starting to see some of those green shoots coming out next year and in the years after that, as we start to recover from this. And then the businesses that are really looking at that and how to set themselves up for success, those are the ones that are going to be successful. Those are the ones that are going to be be accelerating. So my kind of messages, as marketers, as business leaders, there's always this ongoing opportunity to look at the organization, look at the environment, look at have you set yourselves up for success in terms of your omnichannel strategies. Is your content engaging? Is your creative stand out? Is your marketing technology able to deal with the pressure that you're going to put under it in terms of personalization demands that the consumer expects? Because that's what's going to be crucial. And then particularly when you start seeing cost of living and those types of things going up, and this was actually a conversation last night at dinner with many of our customers that joined, how are you identifying those pressures on your customer base and giving them a little bit of flexibility. And your customers, they might be the consumer but they might also be businesses and partners that you're working with. So how can you give them a little bit of flexibility in times of pressure so that when the good times roll in, those customers are so loyal, they're such advocates of yours that they carry your business to the next level. And so I'm really honored to be joined by all of you on the stage today. So Pancho Gutstein for the General Manager from Puma, Oceana. Angela Ward's the Executive General Manager and eCommerce Digital from Rodd and Gunn in New Zealand and Dan Ferguson, Chief Marketing Officer for Adore Beauty. So can we just give them all a round of applause, please? And just thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us today. I'm sorry that's enough of me talking but hopefully I set the scene well, and now I'm just going to kick off with the first question. So let's kick off with an icebreaker. I'm going to start with yourself, Pancho. So this is a question for all of you. So I just want you to think about in tone of the session. So please introduce yourself. Please introduce a little bit about the business and what you're kind of focusing on and then we'll just resilience mean to you and that's just kick off there. Thank you. Well, thank you. My name's Pancho. I do want to begin by acknowledging the traditional owners of the lands we meet on here, the Wurundjeri people, and pay my respects to elders past and present and pay my respect to any Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander people in the room today. I also want to thank Emarsys for this opportunity and talking with Mel earlier today, your partnership during this time and go forward because that will be a big part of what I believe will be our ongoing success. So I manage a Puma business in Australia and New Zealand. We are celebrating our 75th birthday. As a matter of fact, tomorrow night. So if any of you are around, we're out. We're going to some sort of beer house on Princess Highway. So feel free to join us. And you've just got 160 more. But your question on resilience is a really good one. The reality is it is tough right now, but I think the real reality is that life, personal and professional, is always tough. Like to pretend otherwise is probably not true. And resilience is about how do you deal with that? And I'll tell you a story. Marathon was this weekend. My wife ran it. My three year old, Florence, and my five year old, Isla, posted the 3k and Isla walked it, five year old. You know, to me, that's resilience. Like she doesn't want to do it. She put one foot in front of the other and she kept going. We made it into the G and Florence gets out of the pram that I was pushing and she starts running because she's smart. She knows I'll have someone else do all the work until the finish line and then I am going to run and chase down everybody. And as she's doing it, she's just at the finish line and she gets hip checked by this guy and she goes flying and face plants on the ground. And I watch her and like she's shocked and she's even a little bit upset and she gets up and she brushes herself off and she runs across the finish line. Like, that's resilience to me. Just deal with what's in front of you, get up and you keep going. And I think in business, that's what we're facing all the time, right? Challenges will come. The businesses and the people that can say, yeah, that's difficult, let's keep going they're the ones that will do well. So that's how I look at resilience. So I'm Angela. I'm from Rodd & Gunn. For those of you that don't know us, we are a lifestyle brand or we consider ourselves a lifestyle brand. We sell apparel, men's apparel, footwear, accessories. We also have restaurants and bars, and we also sell travel, believe it or not, through our website. So if you want to go heli skiing in New Zealand, come and have a look at our website and you can go heli skiing. So we have six websites, 15 drop ships. So marketplaces all over the world. We have stores in New Zealand, Australia, Canada, US, UK. We're in Gallery, Lafayette, and France and in a department store called No in Belgium. So we're really kind of out there trying everything we can because we see massive opportunity globally for the brand. Resilience. It is a tricky one, I think. It's about having a balance. So you have to have a balance in your work life and your personal life. So do things that set you up for the day or at the end of the day that get out all of your frustrations. But I think for me, resilience has been learning over time how to look at things as an opportunity. Don't see it as a problem. Try to problem, solve everything that comes along and that really helps you out. If you look at it and you think it's all going to crap, but how do I make the most of the crap? How do you get through it? And that's what resilience is to me. That's a good quote. I'm Dan, CMO at Adore Beauty. Australia's leading online pure play beauty retailer. I've been there for coming on almost six years and I think when I started in 2018, our business was roughly doing around the 50 million mark and I think we peaked in the last couple of years at around about 200 million. Now that sounds like an exciting story and it has been absolutely. It's an amazing growth journey. But, in the last financial year our growth slowed and we were down by single digits year on year. Now, that's where resilience starts because if you've got a business that has just been growing like a steam train and then things slow down. Your team is all about growing, they're ambitious, they're full of energy, they're excited. They're in an industry that is just unstoppable. And I feel like I'm talking to many of you in this room like that competitive environment has heated up, costs have increased, and it just increases the challenge. Now, for me, resilience is in our second half. We returned to growth, albeit just growth just slightly up year on year and our marketing cost percentage slightly dropped. And that is a result of our business, our team members, all of them seriously in a dedicated sense every day working on how to improve what we're doing. Resilience for me is about buoyancy. No matter what the tide, you're able to celebrate the small wins because in this environment, a lot of us aren't winning as much anymore. But sometimes you can celebrate the part wins. We tried, we tested a lot, we didn't get there this time round. We're going to go back again. Going back again is, I think, also resilience for me, even though something isn't quite working yet, you have faith that your business and the team will get you through. And, that is worth mentioning as well, because my team is incredible. And so I wouldn't be here on this stage without them doing all those amazing things. And I think resilience for me is thinking about them, that team isn't succeeding as much and thinking about how as leaders we can maintain motivation and be humble. I am trying my best to admit where I've gone wrong more in this environment because it lets my team know that it's okay to not always be winning because some of that is just fair complaince in this environment. And so being more vulnerable, sharing where I've gone wrong and making it okay to keep on pushing through, I think is really important as well. That was a long answer. I think I love a lot of the points that have been said. I think sticking to your guns on some of the go to market strategies when you start seeing metrics go and going back to the start going, why did we make those decisions? And just sanity checking is just so important. But really just sticking with it because sometimes those metrics, they can falter a little bit. But the team to put in hours, weeks, months of work to come up with some of those ideas. So yeah, I think that and I love that that point about learning from your mistakes, it's a really difficult thing to do. Go, this is something where it didn't go quite right. We went down a path. We've checked it. We actually think that if we go now, we reset. We pushed this way. So, yeah, I really think those are fantastic examples. So my second question, sorry. My second question for yourself, Pancho, is Puma, global brand, we have multiple markets. We work with you in all different types of locations and the thing that I find super interesting is that some of those markets that none of the ones I wouldn't have expected, they're the front runners in terms of some strategies and they pass that to the other parts of the business. Some of them are lagging behind it. So there's always this interesting scenario where we're always kind of almost chasing Puma on the next big idea that they're launching. So my question is despite times of uncertainty, we all know that sports, exercise, it's community based, it's a bit chore for many people. And then you've got this balance of you're in the Women's World Cup, you're sponsoring that and then you've also got these consumer pressures. So you've got big notoriety but also the consumer pressures. What changes in consumer behaviors have you observed in; I always say Puma, but it's Puma and what strategies have you started implementing to stay relevant? Well, first, as part of my citizenship test here, they did ask me to pronounce Puma, so I prepared for that. So I do now say Puma versus Puma. But in terms of consumer behavior, you guys are probably seeing it, people are spending less money. Right? That's the reality today for us. People are more cautious in their spends. Big events help us. So Women's World Cup was definitely an uplift for us. And more importantly, it gave us an opportunity to put the brand on center stage in a unique way. So what we did here in Australia and New Zealand was we saw that as an opportunity to build a relationship around a key value for us, which is promoting equality, particularly when it came to women. What we did was we went and found the original Australian national team players and the original New Zealand national team players from 1975 who were never officially recognized. And we signed them to our brand today and put them up in lights. They're 75 years old or so, these women. We then had a big, big event with them and a big moment and we had a soccer match between the two of them. And so that was great for our brand in terms of building equity around that and hopefully longer term relationship and getting consumers more engendered to us. In terms of the challenges we're facing today, we anticipated that, you probably all saw the writing on the wall. So last year we spent a lot of time as a team saying, okay, how are we going to deal with this? And at the end of the day, I think we focused on other business strategies but it's really we focused on our culture. So there's a mindset that we've been trying to instill in the business, a performance mindset, which we learn from a lot of the teams that we partner with. So that comes down to focus on the controllables. There are things that are not in your control. So to you're talking about what your team can celebrate, the wins. Focus on the customer. So we will do everything we possibly can for our wholesale customers and our direct consumers to make their lives easier and then focus on being better and sort of rate yourselves around that versus necessarily where sales are going. So that has been a mindset we've been pushing and I'll give you a quick example on it. And I'm looking at Mel Power, who runs our e-commerce. We invested in upgrading our warehouse facilities to service our e-commerce business. And on paper it was brilliant. And then when we transitioned to the new warehouse where we were going to move five times as much goods, we went the other way. And I'm really proud of that team because they really went back to those principles about focusing on what you can control, doing right by the customer, and being better. Instead of them going, "oh my God, woe is me, like we can't get product out the way we want to." We were getting less product out. Now the team said, "okay, how do we raise our average selling price?" Because they're not getting as many goods out. They looked at what they could control. How do we affect our relationship with consumers to tell them what's going on candidly and build a better relationship. And so I think that is how we are responding to this. Yes, we're investing more in performance marketing. Yes, we're trying to fill the funnel up because our conversion is lower. All that kind of great. I think it's all about the team's attitude and culture that is helping us navigate through this at the end of the day. Winning team. I mean, that's not a small challenge to overcome either. No we just tell people to behave that way and they all do it. Fantastic. So shifting gears a little bit to you, Angela. So we were speaking in preparation. Rodd & Gunn have these restaurants, they have a Michelin starred chef designing that. It's an incredible brand. I actually learned a lot in just the initial 15, 20 minutes when I was speaking to Angela. But shifting gears from towards technology and customer experience. Customer experience is an ongoing journey. We were talking about some of the experiments that you're making. What are some of the challenges your brand's faced in its digital journey? And then how did you overcome that? How did you balance that with business resilience? So we have quite an uncompromising strategy around price and the brand. We will always shoot around New Zealand. So we're always promoting in New Zealand internationally as well as within New Zealand. We don't discount, so you'll never see us go out and do a 30% off or even just to get for retention for customers to talk our executive into doing a voucher to customers is a really big deal. So we have to be very creative and how we think of ways of getting customers into the funnel, getting them through the funnel and getting them to convert. We also have a business that's quite, I suppose, fragmented because we have wholesale, we have marketplaces, we have our own websites, we're bound in stores, we have concessions, we have different languages. So it's around sticking to your brand, being true to your brand, sticking to your DNA, making sure that the story is consistent across the board. So my team has to hold hands with wholesalers that we onboard, make sure that they are getting the right assets to be able to promote our brand themselves. We have we monitor to make sure they're not selling through partners that we don't want them to like eBay or Amazon and because when we're not partnered with them, so we're constantly monitoring that. Languages added a big complexity and because we launched a European based website and we launched it in French and German and English. I have one French person that works for me and he speaks German as well, thank God. And we had to get a brand Bible done on how we talk about our brand in these other languages. And the team have really embraced working in other languages and getting emails translated on time and getting them out and it's a real journey for the team. And I just admire them every day that they come in and they face the journey head on and they're fantastic. And I can't praise my team enough and it's grown massively. So yeah, other things that I have come across since I have been at Rodd & Gunn, I had no idea about accessibility on websites where in the US we get sued quite regularly because it's such a weird area of law. There's no hard and fast law around. It's gray. People can interpret it differently. So we have a company we work with who constantly audit us and tell us this is how you need to improve your accessibility. And I would say that's one thing we've rolled out across all of our websites and it will be coming for Australia and New Zealand very soon. So something to think about is, is your website accessible? Can it be read by a screen reader? All of those, is everything tagged correctly? It's just so important to make sure that customers on that journey, everyone can access your website. We have these ugly blue boxes on the website. Yeah, it's for accessibility. So when I first started with Road & Gunn, I was like, I'm getting rid of the blue boxes and I can't. So yeah, there's this quite a few different challenges that we have faced, but we always face them head on and overcome them as a team and work together to find the best solution for the customer. Because at the end of the day, it's all about the customer. Also when we were talking about the strategies that you're deploying, how you've structured some of your team as well to focus on different areas. I think the compliance and different data laws I think you are an expert now? Yeah, we do. So because I have six websites and three people run those six websites, the front end and they look after two websites each. So one person though, who looks after the US and Canada has taken on; we use a compliance tool called Osano and it's your privacy opt ins-opt outs. And he is constantly coming to me saying, "Privacy's changed and California again we have to update this, we have to do this." So the team, very resilient ops team are constantly changing code and doing different bits and pieces to make sure we're compliant. And every state as well as in the UK, in the EU and some of the really big challenges for us in the UK and the EU around digital marketing because tracking about 50% in the UK opt out of tracking. So it's really challenging to be able to optimize for customers. You can't see. I mean that goes back to, when we were looking at some of the loyalty stats and digging into in the market, you have customers that are saying, yeah, we really have high expectations of personalization but then they don't wanna give you any data. We won't tell you who we are. Yeah and it's just being able to connect those dots, I think it's just becoming challenging and being able to understand how you're able to position the value of data and whilst also keeping an eye on all of the compliance and regulatory. That's a full time job in itself. So super interesting how you managed to structure your team to stay efficient as well during that. So, Dan, our theme is all about elevating the art and science of marketing and really at the heart of, as I just mentioned, is customer loyalty. I really do think that when you've got a bit of downward pressure, as I mentioned in my intro, on people's available money, yes, price is going to drive it and it's an opportunity for brands to show that loyalty and stitch that together and say that customer is our customer and we're going to look after them through these periods. And it was really refreshing again at dinner learning about some of those tactics. But when you're looking at what Adore Beauty did in the last 24 months, so even ahead of some of the pressures, you were looking at a loyalty program, you actually did deploy that with Emarsys. What were some of the takeaways for you? Positive ones, please. But what were the takeaways from you on that experience? On deploying loyalty? How did you go? I think why we did it is 76% of our revenue came from returning customers the last financial year. At the beginning this year, we rereleased figures at 63% of our revenue comes from our loyalty program members. So our loyalty program is important, returning customers are really important to us. That's kind of where starting from the financials, going from our strategic pillars, customer centricity is one of them. Front and center of that is loyalty. And so I guess that's the structure around why we pursued it. And then I think that's kind of art and science. The heart of it is that your very best customers want to get to know you better. They want to engage with you more. It's like a friendship like the best friend and maybe I'm completely one sided, but my best friends tend to have connections with me across multiple facets of my life. I got to work with them and then I played in a sports team with them. I've gone through thick and thin with them, all that sort of stuff as life sort of expands and your friendship expands, it gets stronger. And I don't think it's that different with a brand. If you're really loving what a brand provides you, the value they exchange, then you'll look for more ways to engage with it. And so loyalty was a natural suggestion there. It meant that our very best customers could engage with us more, we could return more value to them. So I think that's the heart of it when we look. For instance, our podcast, nice listeners, they listen for half an hour every week and it ranks highly in Australia in the Health and Beauty Apple podcast charts across the world. And the reason for that is because a lot of our customers listen and when you look at those customers, they tend to be our very best customers. And so they sort of diversify the relationship and so I think it's important to gauge those customers. They attend masterclasses, they talk about us, they join our Facebook communities, they advocate for us. So loyalty is that avenue. I think the science of that is also that in this environment, loyalty and repeat is acquisition. So to the extent that you can drive a really healthy LTV, to the extent that you can know your customer cohorts really, really in a micro way and know what a high value customer looks like, what a lower value customer looks like, and what a customer that you haven't proved yourself to them yet, has lots of opportunity to extend that. You can know that better via loyalty program that helps you invest more in acquisition and when you're investing acquisition, it helps you have a better understanding of what kind of customers to invest, to acquire. How much can they spend relative to their likely LTV. So that's the more science answer to that question. I think some of the observations we've had since we launched is a few things. Loyalty program doesn't equal loyalty. You don't just switch on a loyalty program and suddenly all your customers are loyal. I think Adore has for a very long time rewarded customers and so we were conscious of that when we launched our loyalty program. I think it gave us a bit of an advantage because our customers were already loyal. And so I think where we can improve our program, we see there's opportunity to make it more clear about why they want to go up in tiers to add personalized and deeper experiences like our masterclasses we did. I think there's another phraseology 'look at the shadows and the sun'. When people talk about loyalty programs, they often talk about your highest tier. I think there's a beauty retail in the US that will fly their highest tier members to New York to huge events, and that's very glamorous and exciting. But from a retail perspective, we should look at our lowest tier because they're the members, they're the customers that have yet to find a reason to develop their relationship with you. And so you want to be able to address both. I think for us as well and this is an unashamed plug but for us as well, the loyalty program was us doubling down on our relationship with Emarsys. We've been with Emarsys coming up on ten years and I mean I don't always speak at supplier events, but it's been an enduring relationship that has been an honest one and has really grown. We've grown together in some ways and in this environment, I think when you're looking across all your SaaS platforms and all your suppliers and partners, it's important to not just jump to "we need to bolt on another partner." I think it's important to evaluate, well, how can we double down on the really good ones? And that's not me. I wasn't asked to say that. I think it's a fact of life in this environment. You want to consolidate more spend with really good partners that are going to have your interests at heart. So that was another take out for us. I think the other thing for me would be this idea of first party data. You mentioned that before. The loyalty program for us has been an opportunity for us to enhance our first party data, to give a reason for our customers to supply data because they're engaging with us via our loyalty program. So that's some of the observations, some of the reasons and experiences from our loyalty program so far. Thank you so much. I really quite like that when you're thinking about some of the loyalty programs, when we first really started talking to businesses about how to grow that next level of customer lifetime value, that's really why loyalty come into play. And then when we speak to businesses, some of them do sign the majority of their customers up to loyalty and now they're trying to figure out is, okay, now how do we get that differentiation? So I think like what you said, it's all about that maturity of the business and the marketing and the loyalty strategy coming together and figuring out what is the right time, how much can we invest in this? How much can we balance; because it is actually a cost as well. You have to figure out what those customers are going to get. So it is a very delicate balance of that art and that science and how you want to wrap it around the customer. 100% and for those who aren't launching loyalty programs, there's obviously lots of other ways to develop loyalty. Our app has been fundamental in growing loyalty because apps increase average order frequency, average order value, they attract your best customers that by their nature, they're a deepening the relationship. So there's other ways to increase loyalty apart from just launching a loyalty program. Okay, now we're all suitably warmed up. So now we're going to go for slightly tougher question. This is the leader's perspective. Let's just open it up a little bit. So worst case scenario, you come to work, your marketing, your IT, your operational budget is reduced by 50%. What's the one thing you wouldn't give up? And then when we're speaking about this, obviously, look, we're not going to be speaking here about changing team structures. You know, what are the tactics? What are the strategies? What the technologies? What really could you not do without? Who wants to go first? Yeah, it was a rugby pass, I think. So for us, obviously customer is core. So anything around our customer and how we communicate to that customer, we couldn't give up because retention of customer, reactivation, acquisition, all of that still has to take place to keep the business ticking. I've obviously worked at a few companies where this sort of thing has happened and I've gone and absolutely, because I raised my team, I fought tooth and nail to keep my team because they are what keep the clogs turning and keep the business growing. So yeah or you go back and renegotiate everything. That's something else you can do. They may have done that and majority of the time it does work in your favor. But absolutely a platform that allows you to still talk to your customers, still communicate with them when they come to your website. So even though, we're here for Emarsys, it would be Emarsys that we couldn't live without because it does give us the ability to communicate to those customers. And I also have been with Emarsys for a very long time. I think Ezbuy was my first one we implemented there, I went to Harvey Norman, I signed the documentation to implement, I moved on and now I'm at Rodd & Gunn and they had just implemented. So it is a tool that I'm very familiar with and love to use and love to get the team and using it. It can give you lots of insights. Just learning about your customer, keeping on top of your customer's behaviors. It's so different in every country as well. So to have the ability to get down and look at the data and see that different behavior in different markets and look at how do you talk to those customers is key. Well, it was a real world scenario for us this year. It wasn't to that extent. But first and foremost, I would never, ever cut coffee. That's number one. Mel knows that. That's number one. So we've invested in that. We've invested in better espresso makers as well. So that's number one. We did not cut anything to do with lead generation, period. Now, I will tell you where we did cut that I made a big mistake. We cut back on team development and cultural development. I've made many mistakes in this job, but I think that's one of the bigger mistakes I made because as I listen to people talking today, in all your jobs, you interact with different departments, different roles, in-store, all that kind of stuff. So all the technology, all that, that is great. But at the end of the day, it's people working together in a manner that's effective. And so I regret that I did that. And we will double down our investment to create an environment where people feel more like they belong, that they truly can trust the people they're working with, that they can have open and candid conversations because that is the the key, I think, to everything. So that I would say do not cut that. And if people in your business are suggesting cutting that, that I would go fight for and tell them the guy at Puma Australia made a major mistake and he'll tell you. So that's what I would answer. I mean there's people we employ, they move around, right? And so they want to be developing in their careers, they want to be growing in their experience. I think that's a fantastic point. That wasn't where I necessarily thought you were going to go but that's such a fantastic point in making sure you're growing that human component in your organization and that experience. Super interesting. Dan? Yeah, look, I think that the initial approach is kind of looking for the opportunity. And so I think most of us have SaaS platforms, a lot of SaaS platforms with a lot of features, a lot of bells and whistles, and a lot of us bought a lot of those bells and whistles through the peak of pandemic. And so I'd look to go, can I increase performance from using those things I'm already paying for, maximally using those things I'm already paying for? I think, one of the first things when I started in my role, one of the first things I did was re-engineer how we managed and scaled retention and made that a really core focus of our business. Because of what I was saying before, is if your retention, your LTV is healthy, then you're able to invest in new customers. So the first thing was retention. The second thing was data. So launching data in our business, because that helped us understand the relative PNL of each customer, of each traffic, of each product sold all those aspects so that you can scale up or scale down. So that does give us the ability to scale up and scale down. Sometimes my team will regret every month. We're very variable, we're very dynamic, responding to the conditions. And so, like for me, what I wouldn't give up is our customer marketing program, machine, platforms, different partners, some really valuable ones in this room. And the data helps inform where to invest best when it comes to acquisition. I think they're the kind of no-gos for me, I think beyond that, it's just having an inquisitive spirit and looking at everything new in this environment and being ready to test and fail. But then also doubling down where it where it works. Fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing. So final question is all around kind of a tip that you would give on career advice for the aspirational marketers and professionals in this room from your leadership experience? I'll start first. So one of the things that I believe as leaders we have a responsibility to do is make decisions quickly. So I think the dwell time and the lack of decision making can really slow down organizations and although they do sometimes come with challenging learnings that like you just spoke about earlier, Pancho, lack of decisions are the thing that can really slow down growth, they can slow down innovation, they can slow down team spirit. And so I always think have those big bets, make decisions as quickly as possible but founded on robust foundations so that you can springboard off. I think that's one of the key ones for me. Dan, do you want to start? Yes, sure. I was watching TikTok the other day and I watched this quick video around an ex member of the CIA saying – What's the one key strongest life take away from his 20 years in the CIA? I bet you didn't think I was gonna say this. And they said the difference between perception and perspective. And the reason I say that is because there's so much change afoot and so in terms of career advancement right now, we need to change. But also some of the people around us, we need to encourage them to change. And perception and perspective. Perception is what you think a situation is, what you think the reasons for we can't change are or that person doesn't want to change and perspective is your ability to put yourself in their shoes and understand why they might not want to change in this situation. So understanding the difference there and being able to advance or leverage that understanding, put yourself in their shoes is really important. For putting yourself in their shoes and just understanding. Yeah. And the other one is advocate for yourself unashamedly. I think in my team, but also just in my career, there's a lot of people who have been brilliant but really relatively silent and there's a phrase, what is it? Don't be the quiet achiever. There's great humility in the quiet achiever. Don't be the quiet achiever, be the loud achiever. That's okay. Particularly in this environment too, so that your business knows your impact and so others look to you and go, "Hey, they're really proud of what they're doing. That's inspiring." And it's also positive for your career. Not that I want any of my team members to go anywhere, but that's my thoughts. Pancho? Both those are excellent. So thank you. I think if you're talking about developing into a good leader, I really like quick decisions and I think you're right. I think clarity and candor are very important. But I think the most important job of a leader is to infuse energy into an organization. And so if you are dealing with anyone and they are leaving with more energy after they've talked to you than they came into it, you're doing something right. If they're leaving with less energy, then you have failed. So that's sort of how I try to look at it. For me, it's always speak up. Always feel like you have a voice. Because especially as a woman and so many times you sit back and you let men in the room, talk and you're thinking in your head, but I know this. I know the answer and you don't speak up. So I would encourage people to always speak up, even if it's a stupid statement. Stupid statements can lead to great outcomes. So always speak up and learn how to manage up really well. Like sometimes my team manages me and I don't even know they're doing it and it's and then I step back and I think, Oh yes, I just got managed really well and that's great. I encourage it. So I think that's a fantastic piece of advice. You've got to make sure that you're managing upwards and you've got to manage into the organization as well. It's so important to be able to get your ideas out there as well. I think always take opportunities as they come because your career doesn't always have to go up. It can go sideways and you can discover a passion that you didn't know you had.. That's brilliant. Round of applause, please. Thank you so much. Thank you very much for sharing. I've taken the time. I'm sure we all took a lot from it. And now on to our next session. But thank you very much for listening.